Bearing arms exposes gap in pro-gun logic

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http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~27772~1578526,00.html

Bearing arms exposes gap in pro-gun logic

By Jim Spencer, Denver Post columnist


Don Ortega says he is a lifetime member of the National Rifle Association. Sometimes he walks the streets of Colorado Springs carrying a shotgun. Sometimes he takes the gun to the public library. He took it to three recent City Council meetings.

Ortega says he totes his weapon for personal protection. He says he has been threatened and that police can't keep him from harm.

I hear this sort of stuff all the time from opponents of gun control. Ortega is different. Recently he took on the role of that character in the tale about the emperor's new clothes.

You know the one. While everyone fawns over the emperor's imaginary wardrobe, this person points out that his majesty is naked.

That's what Ortega did when he started carrying his shotgun to Colorado Springs City Council meetings. He showed just how exposed Americans are because of our lack of sane gun laws.

The poetic justice of his symbolic statement was that he never intended to make it.

This country and state allow guys such as Ortega to openly carry loaded firearms almost anywhere with impunity. That more of them don't is not pure luck.

Last week, Ortega's exercise of his Second Amendment rights scared the Colorado Springs council into passing an emergency law to ban people from openly carrying guns in city-owned buildings.

Before voting against the gun ban, Springs Councilman Tom Gallagher called Ortega "an ignorant, stupid, irresponsible man."

Ortega did nothing wrong. At least not in a legal sense.

"The local media have portrayed it in a slanted manner," Ortega told me. "I never did this as a protest."

Ortega, 38, said he's considering getting a concealed-weapons permit.

Memo to the Sons of the Second Amendment, especially Tom Gallagher: He's one of yours.

He's also shock therapy.

Ortega showed how far outside the mainstream unabridged gun worship can take us.

Without meaning to, Ortega caught members of the keep-and-bear-arms crowd with their rhetorical pants down. It would be funny if the implications weren't so disturbing.

The Colorado Springs situation proves that letting people traipse around openly with weapons doesn't make people feel safer. It freaks them out.

"An openly carried weapon is intimidating," said Springs Councilman Jerry Heimlicher, a gun-rights supporter who voted for the ban. "We have teachers who bring schoolchildren to council meetings. We had a group of Eagle Scouts there the night we voted on this."

City Council often has heated debates in which people get emotional and angry. There is a chance, albeit remote, that such a situation might turn violent if someone has a gun, Heimlicher said.

"These are things that should not happen in public meetings," Heimlicher said. The citizens, he added, have a right to safe public meetings and city workers the right to a safe workplace.

Agreed and agreed.

Now, what about everybody else?

State laws make it clear that localities and private property owners must adopt prohibitions and post signs in order to compel common sense. Otherwise, it's business as usual. Creepy business. Scary business.

That's the naked truth in Colorado Springs and almost everywhere else. And if you think the weirdness is over, consider this:

Colorado Springs City Attorney Pat Kelly said the City Council instructed her to limit the gun ban to open display in city buildings.

This means Ortega or others can still scare people by legally lugging loaded guns around a city park or a public pool.

"We're kind of hoping that people will self-regulate," Heimlicher said.

And I'm kind of hoping to win the lottery.

I'm also not counting on being safe at Colorado Springs council meetings now that Don Ortega must check his shotgun at the door.

The emergency ordinance passed last week addresses only "open carrying of firearms." It does not apply to concealed weapons, city spokesman Darin Campbell said.

That's because you cannot ban concealed weapons from public buildings unless you install metal detectors at all public entrances. At this point, the city doesn't plan to do that, Heimlicher and Campbell said.

So it seems that anybody can still pack loaded pistols in City Hall. They just have to hide their heat.

The council is counting on the concealed-weapons permitting process to weed out the bad eggs, Heimlicher said.

That would be the same permitting process that the legislative gun nuts just made easier. Under a recent change in the state law, guys such as Ortega don't have to prove the need to carry a hidden weapon.

So it turns out that the new rule in Colorado Springs is not "no guns" in city-owned buildings. The new rule is "out of sight, out of mind."

As in crazy.
 
"We have teachers who bring schoolchildren to council meetings. We had a group of Eagle Scouts there the night we voted on this."

Heaven forbid that schoolchildren learn that firearms are a necessary part of life.

And WTH does being an Eagle Scout have to do with anything? I happen to be an Eagle Scout, and I'm one of the most pro-gun, right-wing radicals ( :D ) you'll ever see.

And I hate to say it, but of all the Eagle Scouts I know, I don't know any that are anti-gun, so what is the big ???? deal?

It's no wonder we can't keep any of our gun rights, when no one, even GUN SUPPORTERS (!) won't stand behind someone taking responsibility for their own safety. Names will be called, "Paranoid" and "Tinfoil" stickers will be applied, but with a group as fragmented as we are, you can't deny that we're fighting an uphill battle -- right up the face of a cliff.

Wes
 
"The Colorado Springs situation proves that letting people traipse around openly with weapons doesn't make people feel safer. It freaks them out."

This is the crux of his so-called 'argument.' Pretty weak. I wonder if he sits down when he takes a leak?

The right to bear arms isn't dependent upon whether my firearm makes the bliss-ninny next to me wet her pants. It IS about defending myself and my family from criminal scum, and in a dire, last resort, for defending against government tyranny.
 
The crux of his argument is fear based.


Openly carried firearms freaks people out, therefore it should be prohibitted.


Well, it doesn't freak everyone out.

What he is proposing then is that everyone should be constrained to what is tolerable by the most intolerant.

I'd love to see him apply that same argument to free speach/press.

{vomit}
 
The Colorado Springs situation proves that letting people traipse around openly with weapons doesn't make people feel safer. It freaks them out.

Well this article freaks me out, but I'm not calling for the author's first amendment rights to be limited. In my opinion Mr. Jim Spencer is
"an ignorant, stupid, irresponsible man."
 
"An openly carried weapon is intimidating," said Springs Councilman Jerry Heimlicher, a gun-rights supporter who voted for the ban. "We have teachers who bring schoolchildren to council meetings. We had a group of Eagle Scouts there the night we voted on this."

Most Eagle Scouts I know (and I'm one of them) dont pee their pants when they see a gun. Most would also ask politely if they're going to get a turn to shoot it and how much the ammo costs. (I never knew a Scout of any rank that didnt like the archery, BB (during Cub Scouts), .22 or trap ranges)

Kharn
 
""The Colorado Springs situation proves that letting dark people traipse around openly wearing turbans doesn't make people feel free. It freaks them out."
"The Colorado Springs situation proves that letting gay men traipse around openly with their boyfriends doesn't make people feel happier. It freaks them out."
"The Colorado Springs situation proves that letting black people traipse around openly in nice neighborhoods doesn't make people feel safer. It freaks them out."


Our new test of civic virtue is that whatever freaks some people out can be prohibited? I missed the memo. :rolleyes:

Last year, I was on a field trip to Six Flags with an 8th grade class. On the way back we stopped at a rest area along the highway. The only other people there were five men obviously of Middle-Eastern descent. It happened to be time for prayers, so these men pulled out small towels and rugs, faced east, and began praying. No big deal to them, but to 70 white kids from a small farm town who had never met a Muslim, it was a curious sight. One boy asked what they were doing, so I explained it as matter-of-factly as I could manage. Some of these kids were evil enough to make fun of a mentally retarded child right to his face in front of teachers, so I was glad we made it outside before they started chattering about how "freaky" it was that these gentlemen would be doing such weird stuff. I tried to dispel the idea that praying was something freaky, but I don't know if any of it got through.

Anyway, those were 13-year-old kids with no real experience with life who had never met anyone very much different from themselves. What's Spencer's excuse?:rolleyes:
 
"This means Ortega or others can still scare people by legally lugging loaded guns around a city park or a public pool."

Fallacy of imputing one's own feelings to others. Just because HE is scared, doesn't mean others are lilkewise afflicted with this neurosis (some are, some aren't)

" "We're kind of hoping that people will self-regulate," Heimlicher said.

And I'm kind of hoping to win the lottery."

People do self-regulate - that's why 35 states have hundreds of thousands of CCW permits with virtually no problems.

"That's because you cannot ban concealed weapons from public buildings unless you install metal detectors at all public entrances."

Say what? And why not? I think this moron is confusing substance of a law with enforcement of it.
 
"What he is proposing then is that everyone should be constrained to what is
tolerable by the most intolerant.

I'd love to see him apply that same argument to free speach/press."

Unfortunately, he doesn't have to, it's already en train. Europe seems to
be in the vanguard for the "you hurt my feelings" prohibitions.
 
"We have teachers who bring schoolchildren to council meetings. We had a group of Eagle Scouts there the night we voted on this."

Yes. And? What is your point? (If you have one.)


"The Colorado Springs situation proves that letting people traipse around openly with weapons doesn't make people feel safer. It freaks them out."

So, what about cops? FBI? Treasury Agents/Secret Service? Border Patrol? BATFE? They *don't* freak you out?


"The citizens, he added, have a right to safe public meetings and city workers the right to a safe workplace"

Yes, we all need to be made safe by our government, because, sure as snot, WE can't do it opurselves. Be afraid, for you are not safe.


"State laws make it clear that localities and private property owners must adopt prohibitions and post signs in order to compel common sense. Otherwise, it's business as usual. Creepy business. Scary business."

Scary is right. If a behavior needs to be compelled by force of law, is it common sense to do it that way?

Dangerous cretin.
 
Hypothetical question (gedakenexperiment):

Pose one of these people the question:
"You protect the posessions you value, and you do not protect the posessions you do not value?"

Assuming the answer is yes, now ask the question:
"If you are being accosted by someone demanding your wallet/car keys/etc., would you attempt to resist, or comply and wait for the police to arrive and take a complaint?"


IF they answer,"Yes, I would resist," ask them how they would do so without having any way of ensuring supremacy in the ensuing conflict. While they are explaining their 18 years in stripmall karate and/or pepperspray in their purse, make a fingergun and 'shoot' them.

IF they answer "I would comply and wait for the police," make a fingergun and explain that they are going to go to the nearest ATM and drain their account for you, and that you will then kill them; failure to comply will result in assualts on their family as you the attacker will now have their ID, address, keys, etc.

Once they get past the irattional and counterproductive emotional outburst, ask them how they have successfully defended that which they claim to value?
Either way, the response might be interesting...or should I not pose this sort of question while listening to Metallica at high volume after a throughly frustrating day?
 
The council is counting on the concealed-weapons permitting process to weed out the bad eggs, Heimlicher said.

*slaps forehead* That's what I was forgetting! Criminals always apply for the priviledge of carrying their weapons legally, they don't simply jam them into their waistbands on the way to the Stop-And-Rob...

I feel safer now knowing that they've kept the criminals from carrying guns because they didn't issue them permits.

-Teuf
 
Playing the devil's advocate for a minute,

Begging the question of whether or not he was illegal, I consider Ortega to have been terminally impolite with his carry, sort of the same way wearing a dripping wet bathing suit may be legal, but not on Granny's carpet.

Chances are if he'd done this down south he would have been politely told to leave and if he didn't scoot out he'd have been killed by a citizen. Nothing to do with rights, fears or whatever. Merely because he was discourteous and armed citizens have the responsibility to behave with impeccable manners.

I don't agree with the yankified, sissified way Spencer reacted but down here we tend to protect women and weak men. So we would have apoligised to him if we scared him even more when we shot the boor Ortega and dragged his sorry ***ed body out for the coyotes.
:scrutiny:
 
"I consider Ortega to have been terminally impolite with his carry,...'

Wasn't it Heinlin who wrote that rudeness kills?
 
What the reporter didn't say was that the shotgun in question was disassembled while in chambers. This is something that all but one news station here forgot to mention.


c):{
 
What the reporter didn't say was that the shotgun in question was disassembled while in chambers. This is something that all but one news station here forgot to mention.


A) It's nice to hear that most news is so honest, unbiased and complete (NOT)

B) Apparently, disassembled firearms are just as frightening as assembled firearms

C) Apparently, the 2nd amendment reads:

....The Right of The People To Keep And Bear A Pile of Gun Parts Shall Not Be Infringed.....
 
Of course you wont get the whole truth from the Denver Post, especially the editorials. Denver is an hour away(driving the speed limit) and a large city. it has the same philosophy as most large cities in the US. I saw the shotgun in question, it was yellow with a happy face painted on it. There was NOTHING scary about it...no black composite parts, no pump action, nothing. It was a SxS, very unscary. The thing that scared people was that someone dared to NOT be exactly like them.

Granted, Ortega is a little strange to me, carrying an unassembled shotgun that way. I'd have carried it assembled but, to each their own.


c):{
 
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