Belgium 1960 Army Colt??

Status
Not open for further replies.
Thanks guys, great information. I would probably only buy a collector model, prestine condition with box and paperwork but I would be hesitant to buy a shooter right now as parts may or may not be as available as they once were. But, what I've read is most people are saying that these revolvers are great shooters.
 
Willie, I consider myself suitably chastised, but you were the one (#4) who raised the issue of those guns being made by the same company licensed by Colt in the 1800's. I was pointing out that to my knowledge the ones made at that time were not really "copies" of the Colt and that it seems unlikely that the Belgian makers in the 1960's were simply resuming production using machinery and blueprints provided by Sam Colt.

Jim
 
Jim,

No worries, we're on the same page 100%. I just wanted to mention both sides of the debate, noting that there are people who firmly believe both sides. I'm on the "these are really nice copies with a *very thin* possible historical connection to the old license built manufacturers" but I am most certainly not in the "these are made using the same drawings and machinery as the ones built in the 1800's" camp. However I respect the right of others to believe this if they want, in the absence of any sort of definitive proof. Folks believe the tooth-fairy story too when it suits 'em to do so...

As far as being shooters, buy with absolute confidence. They never really need parts, and in the VERY rare instance of needing a mainspring, for example, springs from any of a variety of sources can be fitted with ease. I mean really... do you think you would ever need a rammer, cylinder, or barrel? Nipples and springs are all that you really might ever need, and even then... probably not.



Willie

.
 
After thousands of shots the trigger spring broke and I just made a new one from a clock spring.

I wasn't smart enough at the time to make one from a safety pin.

Mine had a silver plated trigger gaurd and the best finish of any pistol I have ever owned.
 
If you read somewhere that old machinery and tooling was used, you need to stop reading for someone that wrote it has no idea what was done. No one would want the old stuff.

To start with if you needed a milling machine to make some of the parts of a 1851 colt in that year, Then you will need a milling machine to make it today. A company would not need or even want a machine built in 1851.
In the 70's they were using NC mills and now CNC mills.

Same thing goes for lathes, shapers, drills boring machines, rifling machine and etc.

Tooling:
This is and has always been a consumible. Now throw away. There never would be a need to use old tooling nor would anyone want to. In the old days they used hardened iron bits and inserts. Then came high speed steel now ceramic and diamond.

The only thing useful from the past might be fixtures and jigs. But even those would be way out dated. Any modern company would not need or want them. They could make all fixtures needed for a model of revolver in 2 or three days or maybe even less.

Today blueprints would not be needed either. From an original gun, Digitizers, electronic measuring tools copy the original parts and send info to cad/cam software then to the machine to make the part.
 
Unless I missed it, the ad doesn't name the gun maker or firm who made the Colt Brevettes.
And look at the line above: "Full line of Civil War REPLICA arms." Are they replicas or true 2nd generation Colts?
Has anyone ever seen an 1860 Colt Brevette?
I do agree with the line: "Quality gun made in Belgium." The Belgians do make really good guns.
Check out this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Colt-Brevete-Revolvers-Roy-Marcot/dp/0961149426
 
Well, provinance or not, I had mine engraved I liked it so much. Yes It needed some work, but I was the 2nd or 3rd owner so I don't know what all was done to it before. And yes, it is a shooter
 

Attachments

  • Finished2.jpg
    Finished2.jpg
    42.6 KB · Views: 53
  • Finished4.jpg
    Finished4.jpg
    24 KB · Views: 28
Nice original ad for the Centennial. First time I've seen the manufacturing claim in print, which is interesting. Reading between the lines, manufacture is claimed to be done by "This same Firm" (note it's "this firm", not "the firm": since many firms built Brevete revolvers) that made Brevete revolvers in the 1800's. That's whatever was left of "A Firm" after two world wars, about 100 corporate changes, and Nazi's literally co-opting every arms factory in Belgium, bearing in mind that the gun manufacturing industry in Liege in the 1800's was pretty much like the one in Gardone, Italy: Each had about 1000 tiny shops each making handfuls of small parts that were assembled more or less randomly by whoever had an order at the time. "Hey Pierre, send me some hammers, I need to make up some 1851's for an order I need to send to Denver". "Ok, Phillippe... I'll have the boy make them tomorrow, I'm making some springs for Jaques today and the boy is in Brussels buying walnut"... This was the size of the "Firms".

So we have the same firm that made the Brevete revolvers in the 1800's making them in the 1960's? Maybe in some uninterrupted trail of company registry in the locaal business registry. A "firm" is a piece of paper registering a business. But we claim that Centaures were made by *exactly* the same company and with magical thinking then believe it was made in the *same factory* with some sort of corporate knowlage based on the experience of the old gunsmiths that made the Brevete Colts in the 1850's... Uhh..... OK...

:rolleyes:

Yes, it's probably true that the company registry of the maker can be traced back to the 1800's and has a paper connection to the manufacture of Brevete revolvers. And it's likely that the workshop was then flattened by a V-2 rocket (check history to see how Liege came out at the end of WW-II).



^^^ Engraving: You showed that in process at TFL when you were having it done, it's still as pretty now as it was then. I'm in the middle of selecting a suitable example from my collection to send to the same engraver (Charlie). He really does beautiful work and the Centaure is exactly the right revolver to invest this work into. Nobody would waste that work on a Pietta or Uberti.


Pohill: I've never seen any Brevete designs later than the 1851, but maybe only because I never looked. I'm going to do some searching now that the question has been asked. "I don't think so" is the answer for now, but... you never know.


As far as the subtle difference between the term "replica" and "second generation", even the Colt "Second Generation" revolvers are replicas, with major components made in Italy. Only the fact that final assembly and finishing was done in the USA (in New Jersey, of all places) allows them to not be marked "Made in Italy". There's nothing "Colt Hartford" about them. A well finished Uberti by any name is still really a Uberti.




Willie

.
 
Last edited:
You'll have to admit Will that the people who are selling these things are really pushing that "Direct line back to the original Colt factory." and "The REAL second generation Colts." Interesting discussion even if the lines are blurred. But they are asking for some serious change when they're being sold and the reason they're asking for that serious change is the line back to Colt, regardless how blurred it is.

However, great information on a good shooting revolver that most have never noticed before.
 
Last edited:
"You'll have to admit Will that the people who are selling these things are really pushing that "Direct line back to the original Colt factory."


^^ Agree 100%


Here's Willie's opinions, worth what you pay to read them:


These are GREAT revolvers.

There is some historical precident to show that there is a long tradition of making very high quality licenced copies of the Colts in the area where they were built, and that Belgium was/is very capable of building firearms to a high standard of quality. These follow on that tradition and in fact the company that produced them has a corporate lineage dating back to the original licensed copies.

I rate them BETTER as shooters than the "Second Generation Colts".

They are FAR NICER than any of the Italian copies.

They are, in fact, about the best choice you can make if you don't want to shoot an original.

They are (or ought to be) worth more than any Italian copy based on their own quality merits, and worth more to a shooter but less to a collector than the Second Generation Colts, and can stand on their own merit without making any additional claims.


Average selling price for a shooter grade one is about $350, so they are not *that* expensive.



Willie

.
 
My Colt 1851 .36 in action (made in 1862). Cost: $450.00. Good deals are out there.
Picture104_zps5499f2d7.gif
 
Great looking revolver Pohill!!!!!!!

Ending price for that one Will on Gunbroker, $636.00 with 12 bidders.
 
^^^ Well.... there's folks then who know what they want! And are willing to pay more than Colt 2-Gen prices for similar condition pieces. Not surprising if you appreciate what you are buying.


Willie

.
 
Pard Crawdad, you did good: That's one that I was missing in my collection (silver plated trigger guard and straps). These are not as common as the blue finish on the usual ones.

Paid for and in the mail.

When I get home in the spring, I'm going to sort thru my Centaur's and thin out the herd a little. I'll give you first dibs on a good shooter grade one if you'll be patient.


Willie

.
 
Good on ya Will, I'm glad to be of some assistance and glad you got the chance to buy it because that revolver is going to someone who can appreciate it and knows what he's doing!!

And I'll keep an eye out waiting for spring!!!
 
Last edited:
^^ No clue, most of the parts are ones needed to restore an original but none are needed to keep a modern one shootin'. That's except for nipples. And seein' as how I need a set of nipples for a nipple-less Centaure, mebbe it's time to order a set and see.


Willie

.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top