Army's Proposed New M855A1 to Use Solid Copper Bullet

[Shawn Dodson]

First off, why would there be increased muzzle blast?

Increased muzzle blast EFFECTS when shooting from behind/around barriers in tight quarters (corners, vestibules, alcoves, etc.). The muzzle is closer to the shooter's face.

 

[GunTech]

Some thoughts on copper bullets.

As already pointed out, we have all copper hunting bullets from a couple of manufacturers, so this is not new technology.

One of the problems with replacing a lead core bullet with a copper bullet of the same weight is that sectional density is lower, meaning an all copper bullet is longer than it's lead analog. This in turn means that copper bullets of the same mass require a faster rate of twist compared to lead bullets.

Second, while expansion is desirable in a hunting round, it is not always the case with a military round. Barrier penetration is an issue that hunters don;t have to deal with. One of the reasons that ball continues to be used for military applications is that it is an all around bullet - it works when shooting bad guy, bad guys with light armor, vehicles, barriers, etc. Military ammo has to do a lot more than just produce a casualty.

Finally, someone brought up MRX. This is not an all copper round. It has a tungsten insert to increase sectional density, and is thus shorter than an all copper bullet of the same mass. It has a higher BC than all copper bullets.

A military bullet derived from something like MRX makes sense in that existing barrels could be used, and a properly formed tungsten insert would make a decent anti-armor, anti-barrier projectile.

Whatever the case, a copper bullet is going to be significantly more expensive than the current M855. Anyone who has bought TSX knows this.

Unfortunately, the military seems fixated on copper as a 'green' solution. There are some very promising sintered metal and polymer metal matrix projectiles that could replace the classic copper guilded lead core bullet at less cost and with better terminal performance.

 

[Al Thompson]

problems with replacing a lead core bullet with a copper bullet of the same weight is that sectional density is lower

No. This is false.

Sectional density has nothing to do with bullet substance. SD is simply the weight divided by the area of the bore.

Easy read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectional_density

More detail:

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/4th/41.cfm

Copper is less dense than a standard design (jacketed lead) bullet, so it's longer per given weight. A 150 grain copper bullet is substantively longer than a 150 grain FMJ, but has the exact same sectional density. If the lead were replaced with gold, as long as it's the same weight, SD will be the same.

 

[Owen]

It's probably mandated by Congress. When I left active duty, we were getting beat silly about environmental issues

As the military should be. The US military is the worst polluter is the US, and owns the vast majority of the Superfund sites.

 

[benEzra]

Quote:
problems with replacing a lead core bullet with a copper bullet of the same weight is that sectional density is lower
No. This is false.

Sectional density has nothing to do with bullet substance. SD is simply the weight divided by the area of the bore.

I think GunTech may have mistyped. Replacing a lead core bullet with a copper bullet of the same size will result in a lighter bullet with less sectional density. The copper bullet has to be made longer to maintain a given sectional density, but the SD of that bullet will still be inferior to a copper bullet of that increased length. At some point, either case capacity or rifling twist will limit how long the bullet can be, so you can't just keep stretching the copper bullet to keep up with the SD of the lead bullet beyond a certain point.

 

[NG VI]

I think it's an expensive and foolish idea. Unless they somehow make the potential new bullet much more effective than either M855 or Mk 262, I think it's going to be a great way to make a bullet that won't deform or give decent performance out of any rifles or carbines.

And I never knew that lead from spent projectiles was an environmental hazard, I was under the impression that lead is only harmful if it is ingested.

 

[GunTech]

I think GunTech may have mistyped. Replacing a lead core bullet with a copper bullet of the same size will result in a lighter bullet with less sectional density.

Indeed, my bad. I was thinking of two bullets of identical volume and dimensions.

 

[fireman 9731]

Small arms training accounts for about 2,000 metric tons of lead going into the environment every year, Army officials say.

Where do they think the stuff came from to begin with?!?!?!??!

Somebody needs to send a box of Barnes TSX bullets to them. That way they can save the money spent on R&D for the more expensive copper.

OR just switch to 7.62x39. I'm sorry, but the Russians have never made a bad firearm/ammo/military mistake that I know of... just saying.

 

[Clark]

Someone just sent me this pic.

Will we ever get to buy surplus again?

 

[sigstroker]

Probably not that stuff. Looks like it would be deemed as armor-piercing.

 

[madmike]

.50 cal does just that, alone with .408 & .416

they should change to 7.62x39.

The first two are impossibly massive to general issue.

And why would we change to a bullet with EVEN LESSER wounding characteristics?

 

[madmike]

As the military should be. The US military is the worst polluter is the US, and owns the vast majority of the Superfund sites.

We could go back to sharpened sticks. Would that suit your hippie sensibilities?

Oh, wait--sticks have to be cut from trees. Poor Mother Gaia.

 

[Mandolin]

Would someone please enlighten me on why we still care about the Geneva/Hauge/insert random treaty name here convention that we NEVER SIGNED??? NO ONE except us actually follows the rules. The Japanese in WW2, the North Koreans and ChiComs in the Korean war, all Vietnamese in that war, Saddam in Gulf War 1.... and yet we still follow an antique set of rules that limit our effectiveness.

 

[John Mosby]

It is complete foolishness that we constantly restrict the ability of our troops to efficiently kill the enemy. The Marines seem to have taken it into their own hands with the adoption of the SOST round which seems to be the Federal TBBC (for deer hunting) as it is no longer available on the civilian market in 223. It is fairly barrier blind, accurate, and an expanding deep penatrator with good effective range. And yes it does have lead in it.

 

[AR-15 Rep]

Sometimes it is not always about the kill... if you think about the cost of a body bag vs the cost of long term medical care. When you actually kill a enemy the rest are going to do everything they can to kill the force that did it, but when your buddy is wounded and needs to be treated or carried to the rear you eliminate 2 or more from battle.
You have to remember dead is dead and there is nothing anyone can do but when you wound someone the screams of the wounded make others do everything they can to help them.
This is just a thought on why it is sometimes better to not have totally lethal rounds.
Then again sometimes it's just better to take out the enemy for good and not have to worry about them coming back another day. Anyway just a couple thoughts.

 

[tkopp]

What's bugging me is the first-hand account of rifle bullets failing to penetrate windshields and car doors. I know lighter bullets will *deflect* going through a windshield, but the Box of Truth testing (as I recall) was limited to pistol rounds. You'd think rifle rounds would punch right through. Maybe bullet weight and not velocity is the salient factor and they deflected down into the dash? Worth testing.

 

[C-grunt]

I have heard from several sources that glass is one of the hardest barriers on bullets. Its not uniform in how it breaks and with coatings it can flex as well. On top of it being pretty hard, it makes reliable repeatable testing pretty hard to do.

 

[John Mosby]

The Sost and several other rounds such as the Noslier Partition and bonded bullets like Gold Dot and Barnes do the best job on barriers like windshields and car doors. Unless it's a straight square on shot, hard tip bullets will deflect some while penatrating angled barriers such as winshields. Soft tips will allow the tip to deform when impacting the barrier while allowing the bullet to stay on course. Fragmenting bullets like the m193 are good for blasting peoples innards at close range without much collateral damage, but are worthless on barriers like automobiles. the m855 is not much better. Along come the marines. With rounds already developed for deer hunting and breaking bones.

 

[hammerklavier]

The army cares about the environment huh? Next up, a Hybrid tank, jets that run off of water vapor, and bombs that help plants grow and aren't too loud so as not to disturb any napping bunnies.

 

[KW]

I don't see why everyone is so critical of the Army pursuing a green bullet. They were directed to do so by the US Government, and it will help them keep access to a lot of ranges. Range time and training probably have more impact on the effectiveness of our bullets than bullet construction.

The Air Force and Navy have been pursuing bio-fuels for use in their jets. Is it stupid of them to be looking ahead and trying to ensure that they can keep flying their aircraft if oil becomes more expensive and scarce? It all goes back to the whole tactics vs. logistics argument.

 

[John Mosby]

With about 250,000 rounds (counting training) fired per insurgent killed, whats wrong with working on a green training round? You can't fight a war with a half hearted attitute, you fight to win. Our good people on the front lines doing the shooting (and getting shot) deserve the best we can give them, the VERY BEST ! No exceptions.

People are walking around in the woods shooting deer with better ammo than our soldiers have to fight the war with. We should hang our heads in shame and then fix the problem. And then worry about a green training round.

 

[Casefull]

When a nation, such as ours, no longer has the belief that there way of life and traditions are equal, if not better than those we live with(other nations) then we are well on our way to our own demise. We send people to prison for killing pets and treat our own citizens worse than illegals and terrorists. We have brainwashed our children about false evironmental concerns for years. We have become a police state because we are afraid to do anything ourselves. Free speech is gone...unless you want to be homeless so you have nothing that the govt. or govt backed lawyers can take from you.
The predators from Mexico, the Middle East, and most anywhere else in the world are licking their chops and the idot women and castrated men of this country elect fools that worry about lead poisoning. Lead poisoning is one of the most overrated, phony, scare tactics of the last hundred years. My son is getting deployed this fall to the 'stan and I hope he doesn't get injured cause he is worried about hurting someone. Sorry for the rant but I have had it with all the ignorant citzens that cannot see what is happening all around us...Nero is fiddling, Rome is burning...and the enemy is in office put their by us 'reasonable' enlighted people. We are so far gone that those that speak anything close to 'reality" are looked upon as loons. I remember as a young man(now 58) thinking that the John Birch Society members were loons for talking about the commies taking over. 40 years ago the seeds were being sown in academia and the media for what we now have. I heard on the news yesterday that the new rounds were being adopted immediately...like the 223 is not pissant enough as it is.

 

[John Mosby]

Amen. I think the 223 has it's place but probably stopping cars aint it.

 

[Owen]

so I take it that Casefull has never had lead poisoning.

 

[Owen]

Hybrid tank

Actually this is in the works. Hybrids have a lot of advantages. You do realize that locomotives and submarines are already hybrids, right?