Stile Distributors replica brass-framed octagon barrel 1851 Colt Navy in.36 cal

[bartbrn]

Hi -- I recently bought, from my local gun shop, a replica 1851 brass-framed octagon-barrel Colt Navy in .36 caliber. Roll stamped on the left vertical flat of the octagonal barrel is "SILE - INC NEW YORK," roll stamped on the flat immediately below that is "BLACK POWDER ONLY," and stamped on the right vertical flat of the barrel is "CAL .36 NAVY MODEL - MADE IN ITALY". I've found NO, ZERO, ZIP, NADA other cartouches or proof marks on the assembled pistol. I checked under the loading lever and on the bottom of the loading lever itself, and found NO markings (except some really poor machining on the frame, where somebody went a little nuts with the rouge wheel), and no "COM" (see below) anywhere.

I've read that Sile replica percussion Colts were made by Uberti (hard to believe, as the generally poor quality is nothing like modern Ubertis) and one other Italian maker, possibly Armi San Marco or Armi San Paulo.

The only mention I found of it on a couple "gun marking identification" pdfs was this:

"Sile Distributors, Inc. IT/US SIL Importer of black-powder arms"

I Googled "Sile," and it's still listed on Google Maps as a current business with outlets in several locations in NY, CT, and NJ, but still headquartered in New York City, according to B2B Yellow Pages: 7 Centre Market Place New York, NY, the "Little Italy" section of the Bowery: B2B says: "Sile Distributors Inc is 1 of 2 Guns & Gunsmiths In New York, NY." Google maps also shows several Sile Distributors resellers in CT, NY, and NJ, but a quick check of the CT listings showed that not only was there no one carrying Sile Distributors, but most all the places in CT that WERE Sile resellers are long out of business -- that's the dismal truth about search engines that I'm sure you've all encountered -- you think you're hot on the scent of an obscure search, you get results, and they either lead to "Buy This Domain for 99 cents!", a -404 error, or "cannot connect to this server" (because the server was shut down a decade ago.

Another source says: "Previous importer and distributor of Invest Arms brand and Davide Pedersoli [Italy], located in New York, NY until 1999"

Well, Sile has info online, so I called their NYC number, and, as I suspected, "this number is no longer in service.

On "The High Road" forum, I found the following posts under the thread title "Sile, NY importer of Italian replicas. Anyone know anything about them?":

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=455997

These posts were all made in June of 2009:

bprevolver: "Sile was a distributor/retailer in the 1970's. Armi San Paolo was the supplier of their stainless steel models. The brass frame revolvers usually have the "COM" under the loading lever. The is one of the Manufacturer codes that I have not been able to identify."

jcowan: "Sile's was a gun shop in lower Manhattan that closed down about 10 years ago. They were next door to another gun shop called John Jovino's... Jovino's is still there and imports replica Henry rifles but does not import blackpowder revolvers. I think the company was called Sile Distributors."

Sorry for the long post, but do you guys know anything about "Siles Distributors"? I'd like to be able to get parts for this pistol if necessary -- the build quality seems quite poor -- but I don't know which current replica manufacturer's parts might fit.

Also, I have a slight problem -- when I got the pistol home, the cylinder was dragging quite a bit on cock (and the spaces between the timing notches on the unrebated .36 cal cylinder are surface scored), and so I very lightly tapped the wedge a little looser. Now the VERY soft (guess how I know!) wedge retaining screw on the left side of the barrel wont turn, and though I have excellent, correctly sized screwdrivers (I'm an ex-engineering machinist), I'm afraid of reefing too much on this screw, so I think I need to re-tap the wedge to unbind the screw, but I don't which way to tap it -- tighter or looser? Any help appreciated, and I'm glad I found this site.

Anyone with any information about Sile Distributors and who made their guns would be greatly appreciated

Thanks!

Bart Brown

Here's my Sile 1851 Navy .36 caliber brass-framed, octagonal-barrel pistol (double click for larger image):

 

[PainlessWolf]

Good afternoon,
As a recent purchaser of an orphan make 1860 Army ( that the Seller thought was a Pietta ) I hear and understand about finding parts, extra cylinders, etc. on a 30 - 40 yr old cap and ball revolver. Looking at your wedge and screw and hearing that you had just tapped it loose, I would tap it back a little tighter to see if that unbinds your screw. Good luck!
regards,

 

[bartbrn]

Thanks!

I'll try that. The confusion over these "orphans," some of them 20-40 years old, is understandable, but maddening, when you don't know whose parts fit what. For another example on this Siles Navy .36, some previous owner made an attempt to "pretty up" the grips -- now they don't quite fit the frame, and there's some kind of lumpy clearcoat blobbed all over them. At least I got it cheap, and cheap is what it is!

Bart

 

[Malamute]

If I needed parts for a Sile gun and couldnt find info, I'd just try Uberti parts and fit them if needed.

It may be a fine fun shooter. I had a cheap brass frame 44 navy size gun. I never shot it a lot, but it was fine for general goofing off and fun shooting.

 

[PainlessWolf]

Afternoon again,
My 1860, despite getting a little long in the tooth, is in excellent shape. Not a lot of shooting done that I could see the effects of. Once the Goon finishes with my Walker, I'm going to send the 1860 off to him to turn it into a primo shooter as well. Then, I'll know what parts might be found or at least recommended for it to enjoy a long shooting life.
regards!

 

[bartbrn]

Carefully got the wedge retaining screw out, took out the wedge, using the loading lever plunger between cylinders, slowly pressing until the barrel assembly separated from the frame pins, and dropped gently into my hand.

The amazing thing to me is that I "light-sighted" with my MkI eyeball from both ends of the barrel against a good light, and the bore and rifling were as clean and shiny as if they were made yesterday...

 

[bartbrn]

Malamute -- Thanks for the suggestions! Been talking with VTI just today about guessing what and whose parts might salvage (if necessary) the Sile. Uberti was their best guess, too.

"Isn't it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?"

How can you tell how many people post without reading the thread?

 

[PainlessWolf]

Evening,
Mostly because people like me post about something completely different than the thread title, I'm guessing ;o) Bart, I'm glad that two sources have suggested Uberti parts. The company is solid like the guns they build. My seemingly out of the blue response was my subtle ( or not so subtle?, just obfuscating? ) way of introducing Goonworks as a way of getting more avenues to follow for parts for your revolver. Looks like you're good to go tho'
regards!

 

[bartbrn]

No problem whatsoever.

Thanks!

Bart

 

[kBob]

Just a few thoughts.

How "proud" are the screws on the right side of the revolver? Looks like someone may have ground down the flats on that side, where one would expect proofs and date stamps on an Italian made open top Colt.

Did Sile sell DIY assembly kits? The Italy apparently did not require proofing of such kits.

I think those grips are "after market" perhaps made by some previous owner from a discarded table top or some such having nice wood though buggered by being two piece rather than the Colt one piece and being held on with modified hardware screws....and not fitting.....and as you say not finished well.

I have a COM marked gun, a fantasy .44 Navy. Do a search for Klunker or Clunker as I wrote here of my trials and tribulations with it and called it "Das Klunker" It does not have Sile's stamps on it to my memory.

Siles also used to import a Pacmyer grip knock off made in Italy as well. I liked them better on a S&W M-19 than any other rubber grip.

-kBob

 

[Bigdog57]

I can commiserate. I have two of my earliest revolvers, both brass framed. Bought the 1851 Navy replica from a local K-mart (!) in 1976. It is noticeably smaller and 'daintier' than my later Pietta revolvers. In my young & stupid days, on the advice of the store clerk who knew no more than I did (essentially NOTHING!) I massively overloaded it. The gun held together, but internal parts broke. I got a new cylinder lock and flat spring from a local gunshop (now long closed) and managed to file on them til it fit and (sorta) worked. It still sticks occasionally - it is in a box in parts somewhere.
Later I bought the replica 1860 Army, I think I ordered it from a magazine ad in the early '80s. It too bears no relation to a Pietta or Uberti, and is also 'smaller' than them. I am working to restore it now. Got it functioning, but there are a couple old balls (and powder!) stuck in the chambers. Going slow and careful to fix that!
Neither of these old guns has any manufacturer's marks, though the 1860 Army does have the same or similar Italian proof marks as my Piettas.
This 1860 has the shorter 1851 style grip, but no flare like a Pietta or Uberti. The cylinder is slightly shorter than the Pietta, and the barrel is about a half inch shorter. The hammer shape is wrong too.

It sure would be nice if someone could compile a definitive book on these replicas, detailing the different makers and their unique features and identifying marks, like has been done for certain milsurp rifles. Then we could pin down some of these orphans!

 

[expat_alaska]

I can commiserate. I have two of my earliest revolvers, both brass framed. Bought the 1851 Navy replica from a local K-mart (!) in 1976. It is noticeably smaller and 'daintier' than my later Pietta revolvers. In my young & stupid days, on the advice of the store clerk who knew no more than I did (essentially NOTHING!) I massively overloaded it. The gun held together, but internal parts broke. I got a new cylinder lock and flat spring from a local gunshop (now long closed) and managed to file on them til it fit and (sorta) worked. It still sticks occasionally - it is in a box in parts somewhere.
Later I bought the replica 1860 Army, I think I ordered it from a magazine ad in the early '80s. It too bears no relation to a Pietta or Uberti, and is also 'smaller' than them. I am working to restore it now. Got it functioning, but there are a couple old balls (and powder!) stuck in the chambers. Going slow and careful to fix that!
Neither of these old guns has any manufacturer's marks, though the 1860 Army does have the same or similar Italian proof marks as my Piettas.
This 1860 has the shorter 1851 style grip, but no flare like a Pietta or Uberti. The cylinder is slightly shorter than the Pietta, and the barrel is about a half inch shorter. The hammer shape is wrong too.

That is most certainly a good, honest, and informative story.

It sure would be nice if someone could compile a definitive book on these replicas, detailing the different makers and their unique features and identifying marks, like has been done for certain milsurp rifles. Then we could pin down some of these orphans!

That surely would be nice! I have tried to contact Pietta about my one and only C&B revolver (new 2014 [CM] 1851 Navy steel .36) twice about a squareback TG and no reply from them. Much better results from Taylor's, so Pietta seems not to be a source of any info of any kind.

IMO, the only sources that one could go to would be Forum folks like Fingers, StrawHat, Goon, and MANY others who have had these guns since Christ was a kid.

Patiently awaiting you experts to supply us with that info.

Wish I knew more, but I have nothing to contribute. I would buy that book in a heartbeat at an extravagant price!

Jim

 

[bartbrn]

Just a few thoughts.

How "proud" are the screws on the right side of the revolver? Looks like someone may have ground down the flats on that side, where one would expect proofs and date stamps on an Italian made open top Colt.

The screws on the right side are proud by at most .015" -- I'm trying to get a photo of the frame that highlights the overenthusiastic buffing wheel work.

Did Sile sell DIY assembly kits? The Italy apparently did not require proofing of such kits.

Don't know, but I've broken the Sile Navy .36 down to the action, and have found NO markings (except those already noted on the barrel), no serial number, cartouche, zip, nada, nuttin'

I think those grips are "after market" perhaps made by some previous owner from a discarded table top or some such having nice wood though buggered by being two piece rather than the Colt one piece and being held on with modified hardware screws....and not fitting.....and as you say not finished well.

The grips are a crude job from the get-go, fitting neither the frame nor the back- nor bottom-strap. I need to scare up some one-piece Colt grips and "saw to fit." The mainspring appears to be a leaf spring from a Sherman tank, and cocking the thing takes a bit of effort. I'd cut the sides of the spring back, but I really have no way to re-temper the spring steel. From what I've seen and read about most aftermarket "light" springs, they're a little TOO light.

I have a COM marked gun, a fantasy .44 Navy. Do a search for Klunker or Clunker as I wrote here of my trials and tribulations with it and called it "Das Klunker" It does not have Sile's stamps on it to my memory.

I'll check that out, thanks!

I've seen two reference pages Googling just plain "Sile," and they both give the manufacturer's mark as COM, usually in a square box, but I've seen nothing like that on this gun. I think your theory about it being originally a kit may well be true. I'm going to clean it in acetone, then spray all the parts down with a 1:10 Ballistol to water solution, then take it all down, very fine-grit emery cloth and stone all the burrs and machining marks I can get rid of without compromising the color case-hardening, put it back together, and take it to the club for a shoot. I have three other "Navys," all fantasy .44 caliber (except this latest find): a roll-engraved (with a relief-cast brass frame) Pietta octagon barrel, a .44 caliber Uberti round barrel , and an "1861 Navy" (with the 1861 Army's fluted barrel and "creeping" rack-and-pinion loading lever) made by Armi San Marco for CVA.

Bart

 

[PainlessWolf]

Bart,
It really sounds like this orphan gun has found the right owner to see it fixed up and finished to shoot to it's true potential. Please give us a shooting report on how it does on your range day.
regards!

 

[Crawdad1]

Even a kit has to be 'proofed' marked. Someone grounded them off being that these marks are sometimes not really all that deep.

 

[bartbrn]

Even a kit has to be 'proofed' marked. Someone grounded them off being that these marks are sometimes not really all that deep.

That could well be so, especially given the crude removal of metal on the right side of the brass frame.

I guess I really don't understand the proofing process and standard for black powder firearms, if it was the case that proof marks applied only to a random full-production sample, or each and every fully-assembled firearm or kit. I don't know how they'd proof-fire every gun, then sell them as new, or afford to clean them up and disassemble them to sell as kits. Also, as it's pretty clear that Sile Distributors went out of business about 16 years ago, I have NO idea of the actual age or manufacturer of this gun (except that it was made in Italy). Laws of any kind in Italy are pretty interesting -- though they're strictly codified and as numerous as fleas on a donkey's back, their actual enforcement is haphazard at best, pure chance at worst. A great exposition on this subject is Tim Parks' "Italian Neighbors." Parks, a British translator living in Tuscany, presents the day-to-day life in a small Italian town, and he writes about (among many other hilarious things) the various Italian rules and regulations that everyone is supposed to strictly obey, but most people find a pretty easy way around.

BTW, I paid $60 for this orphan, so I can't complain too much...

Bart

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

If you have ever seen on the Science Channel "How It's Made", periodically they show segments regarding the manufacture of Uberti products. If what they represent is true, EVERY product is proofed at 3x it's normal loading, whatever that means.

 

[bartbrn]

If you have ever seen on the Science Channel "How It's Made", periodically they show segments regarding the manufacture of Uberti products. If what they represent is true, EVERY product is proofed at 3x it's normal loading, whatever that means.

Thanks for the info! I DO have, on my Plex Media Server, 4 Uberti-made video shorts (around 1 minute each) about the Uberti 1860 Army, 1848 Dragoon, 1851 and 1861 Navy, 1862 New Model Pocket Revolver (Pocket Navy) and 1862 New Model Police (based on the 1860 Army, with shorter barrel and fluted cylinder), and a Discovery Channel "How It's Made" segment on "Western Revolver Replicas" (Season 14 -- 2009–2010 -- Episode 2, Segment A) that's pretty good (shot in the Uberti works), and shows how much hand work goes into the Uberti models (in this case, primarily a Colt Cattleman cartridge gun).

"'How It's Made' is a documentary television series that premiered on January 6, 2001 on Discovery Channel in Canada, and Science in the U.S."

You can see the complete list -- with links to the pertinent Wikipedia subjects -- of all "Science Channel" and "Discovery Channel" episodes and all four segments (A,B,C,D) of each episode, all 321 x 4 = 1284 segments of them!:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_How_It's_Made_episodes

Almost all these episodes and/or segments are available on YouTube or Vimeo, including the afore-mentioned Uberti promotional videos. In addition, there's a site that has direct links to 67 "How It's Made" episodes and segments at:

http://datab.us/Search/How+It's+Made+PlayListIDPL71B0872E1EAF679Dlinks

Bart

 

[Crawdad1]

That's the European system or should I say 'over there' system which includes England. If its a firearm it's 'proofed' and 'proof' stamped or its illegal. I've grounded them off before on a Pietta Remington. Its not that hard to do.

 

[kBob]

Crawdad,

A kit gun is not an assembled firearm, but a collection of parts. Some of the early Italian ones were not preassembled or even finished requiring the builder to remove flashing from "brass" parts and do final fitting for grips. Some required some finishing on steel and were shipped in the white. As they were never a fire arm they were never proofed.

At least that has been posted on THR by others in the past.

-kBob

 

[bartbrn]

Crawdad,

A kit gun is not an assembled firearm, but a collection of parts. Some of the early Italian ones were not preassembled or even finished requiring the builder to remove flashing from "brass" parts and do final fitting for grips. Some required some finishing on steel and were shipped in the white. As they were never a fire arm they were never proofed.

At least that has been posted on THR by others in the past.

-kBob

Yes, I've even seen older ones the steel parts of which -- including the barrel -- weren't even blued, and in some instances, particularly important parts -- the hammer and its mechanism, the barrel, the cylinder -- not even case-hardened, with instructions in the kit how to do that with cherry-red steel and oil quenching. When I was an engineering machinist apprentice, many long decades ago, I made the mistake of using air-hardening tool steel (I thought it was oil-quench -- I learned to ALWAYS check at least 5 times) to make a pair of 1-2-3 blocks, cross-drilled through all 6 sides of each block. When I quenched the blocks in oil, one of them cracked. I did the final surface grinding -- this was long before CAD/CAM -- so the 1", 2", 3" faces were within a tolerance of .00010 and square to the world, and the finish so fine that if you held the largest face of one block against the largest face of the other (dry, no oil), they would actually stick together enough that, if careful, you could pick them up by one block, the other would pick up with it., but there just wasn't enough material to polish out the crack and stay within tolerance.

The reason I tell this story in detail is that I've seen videos on YouTube about oil-quench case-hardening of pistol and rifle barrels, and even cylinders, and I'd like to caution everyone that if you don't know exactly what kind of steel you're dealing with, be extremely careful -- the last thing you want is a warped barrel or cracked cylinder.

End of sermon.

Bart

 

[expat_alaska]

I've even seen older ones the steel parts of which -- including the barrel -- weren't even blued, and in some instances, particularly important parts -- the hammer and its mechanism, the barrel, the cylinder -- not even case-hardened, with instructions in the kit how to do that with cherry-red steel and oil quenching.

If I am not mistaken, the case colors on Pietta, Uberti, and other manufacturer's parts are not case-hardened but rather case-colored for several decades. Big difference.

Somewhat OT, but I built a Remington RB .45-110 rifle from a 1902 Remington #5 7x57 Paraguay rifle and case colored many parts by heating the part to much less than cherry red and oil-quenching. The colors were fantastic and there was no noticeable softening nor hardening insofar as the steel was concerned when the rifle was operated. Wish I still had pics, but, alas...

 

[bartbrn]

If I am not mistaken, the case colors on Pietta, Uberti, and other manufacturer's parts are not case-hardened but rather case-colored for several decades. Big difference.

Somewhat OT, but I built a Remington RB .45-110 rifle from a 1902 Remington #5 7x57 Paraguay rifle and case colored many parts by heating the part to much less than cherry red and oil-quenching. The colors were fantastic and there was no noticeable softening nor hardening insofar as the steel was concerned when the rifle was operated. Wish I still had pics, but, alas...

I believe -- could be wrong, usually am -- I saw in the "How It's Made" video shot in the Uberti works, and Uberti's own videos and literature, that Uberti's steel parts are color case-hardened, then the frame is left in the colors of the case hardening, while the other visible parts of the gun -- cylinder, barrel, loading lever assembly, etc. are blued.

I don't feel lucky enough to try this, but a fine-toothed machinist's file, using a light stroke, should skate over case hardening, not removing any metal. However, it WILL remove some of the bluing.