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Berger bullet question?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Muddydogs, Mar 4, 2015.

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  1. Muddydogs

    Muddydogs Member

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    Stats: Win model 70 in 7mm Rem Mag, Berger 168 VLD hunting bullet.

    So I just got some Berger bullets and went about checking where the bullet hit the lands with my Stony Point gauge and comparator. I found that the bullet hit the lands at 2.895" but my mag length is 2.690 inches for a jump of .205 inches. Total OAL at 2.690" is 3.390 inches.

    So that seems like quite the jump for a Berger, there how to load information stops at loading six rounds at .130" jump. What do you guys think? Am I wasting powder or could I luck out and find they will shoot with this jump?
     
  2. mnhntr

    mnhntr Member

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    Different caliber but I found the SMK and Amax not only were easier to find a good load for but they shot just as good or better. The Bergers were very COL finicky.
     
  3. notaglockfanboy

    notaglockfanboy Member

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    Unless you want to single feed every round, you will have to load to fit the mag. Is there a reason why you are trying to seat that close to the lands?? I have chased the lands for accuracy, and it is over rated IMO. Try them so they will fit your mag, I mean you got nothing to loose but a few primers and a little powder. I know they say Bergers like to be seated close, but your gun may not like to shoot a bullet close to the lands. I have rifles that likes a jump, and have rifles that likes it a little closer. Also keep in mind, when you start approaching the lands you can get significant pressure spikes, so keep a eye out.:)
     
  4. Muddydogs

    Muddydogs Member

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    No I don't want to single feed rounds, this is my hunting rifle so I need the mag. I guess I was just worried because they do say seat Bergers close to the lands, they have published some new info on seating away from the lands but .130 away is the furthest they go. I will do a work up load at mag length and see what I come up with then make a decision to keep messing with the Berger or try something else.
     
  5. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

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    I tried Berger's some years back, but I found them to be very finicky. I gave up on them and have been perfectly happy continuing down the Speer, Nosler, Hornady, and Sierra road.

    A really good hunting bullet I've found to be both very accurate, and deadly on thick bone and flesh, is the Speer Hot Core. 145 gr. Hot core will take care of business. Or if preferred, they make them in a 160 gr. also I think.

    GS
     
  6. Muddydogs

    Muddydogs Member

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    Well gamestalker I'm probably making it harder then I should or maybe I'm bored and need something to do but I have been shooting Speer bullets for years and have a good load for my 7 mag with Speer 165 grain Grand Slam's. I am wanting to get just a little bit more out of the old 7 mag, probably in the end I will be whishing I had left well enough alone but its fun to try anyway.
     
  7. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

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    I hear ya, I think many of us, including myself, reload because it gives us the opportunity to enjoy seeing what all we can get from our firearms.

    If you liked those Speer GS's, which I have used and liked, you'll definitely like the Hot Cores. The Hot Core will offer stellar accuracy, while providing better BC than the GS does, and with very little, if any sacrifice regarding bullet integrity at typical 7 mag. velocities.

    Sorry, didn't mean to rain on your Berger bullet parade, I know they'll shoot well, they're a premium bullet. It's just a matter of finding the right combination of distance off the lands. Keep on tweaking things, then share the information with us, I might give them another go if someone can provide some insight to getting them to group well.

    GS
     
  8. thomis

    thomis Member

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    I'm also trying to solve the Berger mystery in my Featherweight but in .308 Winchester. I read the same tech bulletin they have published on their website regarding trying 6 different loads starting with touching the lands and working out in increments. It doesn't jive, though. In my .308 chamber (loosely seating the bullet, chambering it, then closing the bolt) the COL when shoved into the lands is 2.935" and in their manual they state the COL to be 2.810". The only way I'll be able to find out is to get to the range. I'm just waiting for the weather to cooperate.

    IMG_24891_zpsyak1ahkf.jpg
     
  9. RugerOldArmy

    RugerOldArmy Member

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    I've come to the conclusion that the Berger VLD(s) like a jam in the lands, and the SMK(s) do better seated off the lands.

    In my experience, that has included non VLD Bergers. The 6mm 80 Gr Match HPBT(s) are the most accurate bullet I've used in 6mm BR. They're used in a 1-8" Pac-Nor barrel with a reamer specifically designed for 6mm 58 Gr V-Max...and are a jamb fit .020 into the lands.

    Many rifles have such long throats, a jamb into the lands isn't practical, however. I can't jamb a Berger .277 150 Gr VLD Hunting HPBT in my .270 Win. (Nice bullet though, .531 BC, and it shoots decently, regardless.)
     
  10. Muddydogs

    Muddydogs Member

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  11. notaglockfanboy

    notaglockfanboy Member

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  12. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Adjusting the OAL when using the wrong powder/poor accuracy, is a waste of bullets. If you have other powders availabe with loading data for a bullet of same construction/weight, give it a try. I try to stay in the IMR brand and go up or down in burning rate when testing with the same OAL and good neck tension.
     
  13. 627PCFan

    627PCFan Member

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    I shoot a 7mm with 168VLDs and gave up on mag length rounds. Too much jump. If Im using those, its single round only. Id switch bullets.
     
  14. climbnjump

    climbnjump Member

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    I shoot the 168gr VLD hunting bullets in a Remington 700 in 7mm Mag seated .035" off the lands. In this particular rifle, the COL of 3.404" is still magazine length though just barely. These shoot 1 MOA out to 500 yards (haven't had a chance to shoot them further than that yet). Perhaps tweaking the jump would get some improvement, but quite frankly, I don't think I'm a good enough shooter to tell for sure at those distances anyway.

    I also tried the 168gr "Classic" hunting bullets which, of course, Berger designed to be less sensitive to seating depth. But in my rifle, these did not shoot as well as the VLDs.

    So yep, every rifle is different...
     
  15. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    Berger makes 3 lines of bullets

    VLD Target
    VLD Hunting
    VLD Classic Hunter

    Supposedly the Classic hunter is less sensitive to seating depth. I've played around with the Hunting bullet at the range and am getting good accuracy in my 308. Just bought some Classic Hunter bullets. Haven't loaded any but the shape is somewhat different.
     
  16. climbnjump

    climbnjump Member

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    Yep. The VLDs have a secant ogive which gives a better BC but also causes the sensitivity to seating dept. The Classic Hunter used to be called "Hybrid". These have a tangent ogive on the section of the bullet that will contact the lands and a secant ogive forward of that. This also causes them to be a bit shorter than the VLDs for bullets of the same weight.

    So the theory is that the Classics should work better at magazine length with less sensitivity to seating depth and still get some of the BC improvement of the secant ogive.

    (The Target VLDs and the Hunting VLDs have the same profile, but the Target bullet has a thicker jacket which makes it inappropriate for hunting.)
     
  17. Muddydogs

    Muddydogs Member

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    Actually if we are getting technical the Classic Hunter is not a VLD and does not have VLD in its name. The Hunter bullet like stated is a hybrid ogive design. The Classic Hunter is labeled as the Classic Hunter but retailers call it the Hybrid Hunter, Hybrid Classic Hunter and what ever else.
     
  18. quartermaster

    quartermaster Member

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    I have been trying to use the VLD hunting bullets in any rifles that I can get them to shoot accurately for the past few years. There terminal performance is devastating, in my experience. If you have a detachable magazine, you certainly will be limited with seating depths. I only have 2 hunting rifles with mags, as I much prefer floor plates for that reason.

    I do have some rifles that like the VLDs seated very close to the lands, but I try not to load that way, as I have found that if you do, you will find yourself chasing the seating depth down the barrel as the throat erodes. I try to load anywhere from .020 to .060 off and usually can get accuracy in that range. If not, I go to another bullet, except for my target rifles. In them, I just don't load too many in advance, so I can adjust to the erosion factor.

    I am an accuracy nut, so I don't settle for good enough. I can get them to shoot in most of my rifles. QM
     
  19. Muddydogs

    Muddydogs Member

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    Well I hit the range Saturday with work up loads of 59 to 65 grains of Re22 with the bullets seated to .205 off the lands. 59 to 62 grains showed open groups then at 63 grains they started to tighten up. At 64.5 grains I put the 3 shots in a 3/4" group. Not bad for just the pressure check round, 65 grains didn't even indicate any high pressure. Next up will be to load some rounds around the 64.5 mark and really shoot the rifle, this time I was pushing barrel heat pretty good and not waiting very long between shots like I should have.
     
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