Berrys 147 grain plated shooting terribly

[n2omike]

Loaded some 9mm for my Palmetto 9mm carbine with a 10.5" barrel. Load consisted of 147 grain Berrys bullets on top of 4.0 grains of HP38/Win 231. Groups were AWFUL. To see if it was the gun, I had some old Remington 147 grain FMJ and tried those. 10 shots with Berrys on the left, and 10 shots with Remington on the right... shot back to back. To me, it looks like the Berrys bullets aren't even stabilizing. This is at 33 yards.

Thoughts? Has anyone had any luck with Berrys 147 grain 9mm plated? They were all subsonic. All of the Remington were supersonic. (FWIW)

Thanks!

 

[kerreckt]

I have shot 147 gr. Berrys with good success. They were not subsonic loads. For a fair comparison, I would try the Berrys at supersonic velocity before passing judgment. Best wishes!

 

[Hartkopf]

I sort my brass into two lots. Thick and thin. I use nothing but thin brass for plated bullets, along with a good quality expander die and as always, only crimp enough to take the flare out. I seriously NEVER use plated bullets with thick brass. I get terrible results every time.

For 9MM, off the top of my head, S&B, NATO, PPU, Norma, RP are too thick for plated. I use Blazer, FC, and WIN for plated bullets.

Maybe it's just me and the dies I have but it's what I do.

 

[n2omike]

These loaded just fine. They didn't peel the copper and went together easily. I just think they are garbage, and don't seem to be stabilizing... as the bullet holes aren't as small as the ones made with the Renington FMJ.

I've had great luck with the Berrys 220 grain 300 Blackout plated bullet ahead of a variety of powders. This, not so much. Not long after buying these I found RMR jacketed bullets for pretty much the same price. Looks like I'm going to try the RMR 147 grain jacketed and relegate these to pistol ammo for ringing steel at close range.

I shot some additional 5 round groups with the Remington ammo to make sure it wasn't the gun. Gun shoots 147 FMJ great. Berrys plated, not so much.

 

[Hartkopf]

RMR is great but it doesn't mean the Berry's 147s are garbage. Do you have any of your reloads left? Pull a few and carefully measure the diameter. There is more than one way to squeeze a plated bullet diameter down and for your own sake, it would be a good thing to know. I never said you pealed the plating. The diameter after you seated it is what counts and the only way to know is to pull a few and measure. A small diameter bullet almost always shoots like crap.

 

[Charlie98]

I shoot the Berry's 147's in my Kahrs... they are great bullets. I'm going to guess they are not stabilizing at your lower velocity, or the rifling twist is too slow, or a combination thereof.

 

[n2omike]

I could do that... and may. However, what is the solution? Let's say some ARE small? Am I supposed to spend HOURS sorting 9mm brass for various thickness or measure every single bullet diameter? ...and all this just to get somewhat not terrible groups?

I work out of town all week, and am just home on the weekends. I'm not retired with tons of time on my hands. It's 9mm... not benchrest rifle. If I can't simply load the ammo without spending 5 min on every round, it's of no use to me for this particular application... which is basically 50 yard plinking ammo out of an AR style carbine.

Time to make an RMR order... The Berrys 220 grain 300 Blackout bullets worked fine. It's NICE not having to bellmouth all the cases and just seat the bullets without a lot of fanfare like you need to do with coated bullets. Was hoping these would be the same. They seared easy with no issues or copper peeling, but just didn't shoot accurately at all.

Thanks

 

[Thomasss]

According current Hodgden reloading internet site, maximum load for a 147 jacketed bullet using either HP-38 or 231 is 3.4 grains. Berry states on their box not to exceed 1,100 fps or so with most the their bullets. I believe Berry uses a 6 inch barrel in their testing. Considering your 10 inch, you were probably exceeding their recommended velocity.

 

[n2omike]

According current Hodgden reloading internet site, maximum load for a 147 jacketed bullet using either HP-38 or 231 is 3.4 grains. Berry states on their box not to exceed 1,100 fps or so with most the their bullets. I believe Berry uses a 6 inch barrel in their testing. Considering your 10 inch, you were probably exceeding their recommended velocity.

The recommended max velocity from the Berrys site is 1300 fps... which is well above the speed of sound. These were subsonic. Gun had a 'muffler'. Was easy to hear if they broke the sound barrier, which they did not. Another source says 4.2 grains as a max for 147 grain bullets. 3.4 would be a minimum charge. I see people loading 3.8-ish grains as a medium load.

Just ordered the RMR bullets to try. $105/1000 and free shipping. The Berrys can be splatted against steel with pistols at short range.

 

[BOISE BADWOLF]

I have great results with Berrys 147 grain RN, although i use A#7. I get excellent results using 6.5 grains of A#7 OAL- 1.160. I also get great results using the same 6.5 grains for the berrys 115s, just seated to 1.100. Both produce excellent rounds.
A#5 works great for the 115s too. My best berrys 115 grain load is 5.7 grains of A#5, OAL 1.105. Bullseye load

 

[LiveLife]

Palmetto 9mm carbine with a 10.5" barrel ... 147 grain Berrys bullets on top of 4.0 grains of HP38/Win 231. Groups were AWFUL.

Did you conduct a powder work up while monitoring accuracy trend?

I use 3.5 gr of W231/HP-38 with 147 gr lead/plated bullets with good accuracy.

Another source says 4.2 grains as a max for 147 grain bullets. 3.4 would be a minimum charge. I see people loading 3.8-ish grains as a medium load.

Here's load data from Lyman #49:

• 9mm 147 gr Speer TMJ W231 OAL 1.115" Start 3.5 gr (855 fps) - Max 4.1 gr (957 fps)

Speer TMJ is a thick plated bullet (Like Gold Dot) that can be driven to jacketed load data. It's been my experience that pushing Berry's regular plated bullet beyond mid range jacketed load data decreased accuracy.

I would suggest you try 3.5 gr and see how they shoot.

 

[n2omike]

Don't have any AA#7. I did just watch a GavinToobe YouTube video where he had really good luck with subsonic 147 Berrys with 4.2 grains of CFE Pistol. 900-ish fps out of a short pistol barrel and single digit standard deviations with velocity. Might try to find some of that powder. Might work well with both the Berrys and RMR bullets. The other pistol powders I have are HS6, W296/H110, 2400, Enforcer, Lil Gun, Unique, 4227, Bullseye and IMR 7625.

 

[n2omike]

Did you conduct a powder work up while monitoring accuracy trend?

I use 3.5 gr of W231/HP-38 with 147 gr lead/plated bullets with good accuracy.


Here's load data from Lyman #49:

• 9mm 147 gr Speer TMJ W231 OAL 1.115" Start 3.5 gr (855 fps) - Max 4.1 gr (957 fps)

Speer TMJ is a thick plated bullet (Like Gold Dot) that can be driven to jacketed load data. It's been my experience that pushing Berry's regular plated bullet beyond mid range jacketed load data decreased accuracy.

I would suggest you try 3.5 gr and see how they shoot.

I might try that... Will be SLOW, but if that's all the bullets will handle... that's all they will handle. Their load recommendations from their site says they are good up to 1300 fps. But, I guess that may not always be the case.

My loads are probably close to supersonic. As I went through 100 rounds the first day of testing, and a single round did manage to crack the sound barrier at a temp of around 56 degrees.

Will take the chrono next time. Was thinking about taking it today, but the weather is all overcast/gloomy, so I wasn't sure if it would work.

 

[LiveLife]

Their load recommendations from their site says they are good up to 1300 fps.

Max velocity rating is point of "plating failure" and not optimal accuracy.

Here's more on copper plating thickness and velocity ratings - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ng-at-25-50-yards.808446/page-3#post-10470195

other pistol powders I have are ... Bullseye

I would try Bullseye and see how it shoots compared to 3.5 gr of W231 -
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-for-147g-9mm-subsonics.824456/#post-10607922

Glock 22 and KKM 40-9 conversion barrel was used with 1.155"-1.160" OAL/COL for Z-Cast 147 gr lead FP bullets

 

[Charlie98]

I might try that... Will be SLOW, but if that's all the bullets will handle... that's all they will handle.

I must be missing something. Granted, if you didn't chrono them, you have no idea how fast they are going.

QuickLoad tells me they are tooling along at nearly 1100fps out of your barrel... so I don't know about that subsonic part. Further, W231 is burnt and gone within the first 2.25" of barrel length. I'm kind of thinking you are using the wrong powder....

 

[n2omike]

I must be missing something. Granted, if you didn't chrono them, you have no idea how fast they are going.

QuickLoad tells me they are tooling along at nearly 1100fps out of your barrel... so I don't know about that subsonic part. Further, W231 is burnt and gone within the first 2.25" of barrel length. I'm kind of thinking you are using the wrong powder....

It's definitely subsonic with the W231. The gun has a can/muffler so no ear protection, and you can EASILY tell when a projectile goes supersonic. The Remington factory loads were much louder, and were definitely cracking. I intentionally chose the faster powder so it would have minimum noise with the can. Close to 1100 sounds reasonable, as there was one single shot out of 110 so far loaded with W231 that cracked the sonic barrier... so it's close.

I do plan on taking the chrono the next trip to get some data to see if the velocity is consistent. Maybe take some other loads to test as well. The weekends are extremely busy as I also have a street/strip race car I'm putting together... and have a 16 year old son and wife... and need to work on my college aged daughter's house as well, as her dog... well, nevermind about that. Stupid dog. Lol.

Tis' life. Too many hobbies and things that need done, and not enough time to do them.

Thanks for everyone's insight, and any more that anyone still might have. I appreciate it.

 

[Charlie98]

Let us know what shakes out... I'm curious, I must admit!

 

[n2omike]

Okay, did some more testing.

As a recap, I was loading Berrys 147 grain plated 9mm bullets over 4.0 grains of HP38/W231. Accuracy was TERRIBLE out of a scoped 9mm carbine with a 10.5" barrel. Checked the gun with Remington 147 grain FMJ factory loads, and had nice, tight groups... hence the reason for the original post. Lol

Since then, I ordered some RMR 147 grain FMJ to try out and loaded them over the same 4.0 grain charge of HP38... and also loaded some of the Berrys plated bullets over a reduced 3.5 grain charge of the same powder. Accuracy of both was about the same out of my PSA AR-9 with a 10.5" barrel and 4x scope. Both far better than the Berrys plated bullets over 4.0 grains... but not quite as good as the factory ammo. Overall, I was happy.

I had brought some steel targets to the range to burn up the junk rounds, and tried the new combos in my buddy's new Canik pistol. The 3.5 grain loads would only cycle the gun about half the time, but shot just fine. Everything else (4.0 grains of HP38) worked perfectly.

So, anyway... there's the update. (Hate when people don't post conclusions. Lol)

Moving forward, I'm buying my own Canik META SFX... as that is one SWEET shooting pistol! I'll probably use 3.7 or 3.8 grains of HP38 over the Berrys plated bullets, as I've still got a LOT of them left over. Lol. Even the 4.0 grain loads shot perfectly fine for ringing the steel targets... which is a LOT of fun! Also ordered an AR500 dueling tree from Magnum Target.

Curious about the jackets on the RMR bullets. They seem to be brass instead of copper. Last batch of 69 grain 0.224" bullets were that way as well. Haven't tested those yet. I guess brass works just as well as copper for jackets... Seemed to do okay in the 9mm... Definitely can't argue with the price, as they were virtually the same as the Berrys plated bullets!

 

[LiveLife]

Berrys 147 grain plated 9mm bullets over 4.0 grains of HP38/W231. Accuracy was TERRIBLE out of a scoped 9mm carbine with a 10.5" barrel. Checked the gun with Remington 147 grain FMJ factory loads, and had nice, tight groups ... PSA AR-9 with a 10.5" barrel and 4x scope

My experience with "blowback action" 9mm AR carbines and pistol (17" Just Right 1:16 twist rate, 16" PSA 1:10 twist rate, 8" AR pistol 1:10) is similar to yours as I found slower burning than W231/HP-38 tended to leak more gas if the dwell time (Bolt/buffer contact time with chamber) was insufficient and produced larger group size.

Instead of increasing buffer weight (I was already using 5.4 oz H3 type buffers), I decided to test faster burning powders and my group size decreased. (I also tested lighter 95/100/115 gr bullet weights compared to 124/147 gr bullet weights to reduce vertical stringing at longer distances of 50/75/100 yards).

These are my smallest 50 yard groups tested with 17" JR carbine compared to other bullet weights and powders (Bullseye to BE-86) which is on par with published magazine testing of JR carbine which produced 1.2"-1.7" groups using various factory ammunition (BTW, RMR 100 gr RN was thick plated bullet no longer made) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/which-powder-for-95-gr-bullet.873937/#post-11618837

And this was 1:10 PSA vs 1:16 JR carbine testing

 

[LiveLife]

RMR bullets ... Definitely can't argue with the price, as they were virtually the same as the Berrys plated bullets!

Definitely.

Curious about the jackets on the RMR bullets. They seem to be brass instead of copper.

I guess brass works just as well as copper for jackets... Seemed to do okay in the 9mm...

Nothing wrong with brass jacketing. I have used brass jacketed Montana Gold bullets for USPSA matches and Remington Golden Saber bulk bullets to load "practice" duplicate defensive rounds for decades.

There was some concern of brass jacketing causing faster barrel wear by some match shooters using Montana Gold bullets over copper jacketed bullets but after shooting over 120,000 rounds out of my Glock 17, I stopped worrying about barrel wear and kept on shooting them in my Glock 22s for matches.

 

[DMW1116]

I have used a minimum load of 231 with Berrys 147 grain plated bullets with very good results from my Shield. That’s a much shorter barrel than you’re using though. From that pistol they’re probably the most accurate range load I have. Lehigh are more accurate but way to pricey for frequent range trips.

 

[1911JAS]

I load a lot of Berrys from 9mm to 45 acp. I understand that I can not load to the same spec as FMJ. It is a different bullet. I treat it as a cast lead bullet and use cast lead data. I have great success with 230gr Berrys in a 14" barrel using cast data not FMJ data.