Best caliber for a (very) long distance rifle: smaller, faster vs larger slower bullet

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...For my own rig I do indeed plan to use a 6.5 or 7mm based caliber, though I haven't made up my mind yet whether that will be a regular .308 Win type cartridge, a short magnum, or a short magnum wildcat...

The current hysteria for 6.5 Creedmoor bring w/ it commercial support.

- inexpensive rifles.
- inexpensive match grade ammo.
- constant innovation.

It doesn't really do anything better than the ole 6.5x55 - but it is a lot more practical to run.

...and now the 6.5x55 has better, less expensive bullets because of it.

:D




GR
 
Let's say you're planning on building a rifle for very long distance shooting, and you've picked a specific model of rifle. So now you that you've chosen the base platform you're left with deciding on the caliber to build it on.
you're doing that backwards. start with a bullet, then figure out a cartridge, then a gun to shoot it in

wouldn't a large(r) caliber be the much better candidate over a small(er) caliber? After all the bullet drop of a large(r) caliber can be easily adjusted for and factored into the calculation with the help of the laser rangefinder and ballistic calculator, while the bullet drift of a small(er) caliber much less so, especially at very long ranges.
no, not really. it's give and take in the equation. just do the math and you'll figure it out.
the real question though, is do you want to kill something or just poke it?
6 dasher still holds a lot of 1000 yard benchrest records. but nobody would use it for hunting/tactical at any range.


I have no clue whether recoil only affects the shooter's experience or if it also has an impact on the accuracy of one's shot?
just the shooters experience and wallet. but that's really really important.

Known distance shooters (such as F-Class) very often pick the most precise and highest BC bullets that are suitable to their chosen cartridge types. This is due to the fact that wind and shooting skill are the major variables.

Unknown distance shooters (PRS and Hunters) often must account for ranging errors and will usually pick a bullet that has an acceptable BC for expected target range but will look for maximum velocity over BC. The extra velocity in this case gives flatter trajectory and first round hits are what counts.
f-class shooters will typically go for the most accurate. there are a lot of bullets that are pretty much equal in terms of wind drift

that's the way PRS shooters looked at it 10 years ago, but nobody including me does that anymore. pushing the velocity limit creates too many problems with smooth functioning of the rifle, which is very important when shooting positional. low recoil, smooth (no sticky cases or herky jerky extractions), accurate is the way to go. if it's high BC then that's great too
 
It’s well documented why and how impact likelihood is improved when shooting 6.5 creedmoor - a lighter, faster load, with higher ballistic coefficient - than 308winchester. Read Litz’s work, and the PRB article in which the WEZ model is used (a Monte Carlo simulator) to produce a predictive hit percentage model, and the corresponding sensitivity analysis. The answer is clear, a 308win is never a better choice for 1,000yrd shooting than a 6.5 creedmoor.

Sensitivity becomes key at long range. A faster, higher ballistic coefficient bullet will be less sensitive to variability. Wind and range estimation errors (even when ranged with a laser) will influence a slower OR less aerodynamic bullet more than they will influence a faster or more aerodynamic bullet.

Here’s an example of a sensitivity analysis done by PRB, reflecting various combinations, a matrix, of large and small bullets and fast and slow bullets. Not well described, but certainly demonstrated is the overall, simple trend: the faster a bullet is going with a higher BC, the less sensitive it will be, such the greater its hit probability will be.

37C00D2B-8D79-42AE-81AB-2D3C454F54B3.png

You’ve broadly over-generalized the craft of long range shooting. You are not always forced to choose a fast, low BC bullet against a slow, high BC bullet - it’s a two dimensional system which encompasses a planar spectrum of cartridges - light and slow, heavy and slow, light and fast, heavy and fast, and everything in between. Increasing caliber is one way to increase ballistic coefficient, but only when the bullet weight is proportionately increased to maintain an appropriate bullet profile (form factor) and when the powder charge is commensurately increased also to maintain velocity.

In competition, almost unilaterally, recoil is bad. So increasing bullet weight, and correspondingly increasing charge weight to achieve velocity is almost unilaterally bad. A shooter has to have a REALLY good reason to tolerate recoil.

Sometimes we need to kill game at long range, so we need a lot more powder to deliver a heavier payload at a higher velocity downrange. And we tolerate a lot more recoil. That’s an entirely different ball of wax. We need a bigger bullet and more powder - which almost always comes with disadvantageous baggage.

Having said all of that, confirming that it is GENERALLY true to say “you can’t outrun efficiency,” but it happens very frequently that a slightly less aerodynamic bullet can be pushed sufficiently fast to defy that logic. For example, at EVERY. SINGLE. MATCH. I will overhear a couple 6.5 creed shooters discussing a certain target, because their wind bracket is larger than the target, so they have to pick their bracket more carefully and risk missing upwind OR downwind if they are wrong. So I check my data - nope, my bracket is still smaller than the target, and I smile. I drop less points than they do because my 6 creed shoots faster (3100 vs. 2800), and still has a very respectable BC (.275 vs. .310). So I can literally outrun their bullet to the target just enough to defy the wind, and not give up increased risk in my wind call.
 
It’s well documented why and how impact likelihood is improved when shooting 6.5 creedmoor - a lighter, faster load, with higher ballistic coefficient - than 308winchester. Read Litz’s work, and the PRB article in which the WEZ model is used (a Monte Carlo simulator) to produce a predictive hit percentage model, and the corresponding sensitivity analysis. The answer is clear, a 308win is never a better choice for 1,000yrd shooting than a 6.5 creedmoor.

Sensitivity becomes key at long range. A faster, higher ballistic coefficient bullet will be less sensitive to variability. Wind and range estimation errors (even when ranged with a laser) will influence a slower OR less aerodynamic bullet more than they will influence a faster or more aerodynamic bullet.

Here’s an example of a sensitivity analysis done by PRB, reflecting various combinations, a matrix, of large and small bullets and fast and slow bullets. Not well described, but certainly demonstrated is the overall, simple trend: the faster a bullet is going with a higher BC, the less sensitive it will be, such the greater its hit probability will be.

View attachment 924462

You’ve broadly over-generalized the craft of long range shooting. You are not always forced to choose a fast, low BC bullet against a slow, high BC bullet - it’s a two dimensional system which encompasses a planar spectrum of cartridges - light and slow, heavy and slow, light and fast, heavy and fast, and everything in between. Increasing caliber is one way to increase ballistic coefficient, but only when the bullet weight is proportionately increased to maintain an appropriate bullet profile (form factor) and when the powder charge is commensurately increased also to maintain velocity.

In competition, almost unilaterally, recoil is bad. So increasing bullet weight, and correspondingly increasing charge weight to achieve velocity is almost unilaterally bad. A shooter has to have a REALLY good reason to tolerate recoil.

Sometimes we need to kill game at long range, so we need a lot more powder to deliver a heavier payload at a higher velocity downrange. And we tolerate a lot more recoil. That’s an entirely different ball of wax. We need a bigger bullet and more powder - which almost always comes with disadvantageous baggage.

Having said all of that, confirming that it is GENERALLY true to say “you can’t outrun efficiency,” but it happens very frequently that a slightly less aerodynamic bullet can be pushed sufficiently fast to defy that logic. For example, at EVERY. SINGLE. MATCH. I will overhear a couple 6.5 creed shooters discussing a certain target, because their wind bracket is larger than the target, so they have to pick their bracket more carefully and risk missing upwind OR downwind if they are wrong. So I check my data - nope, my bracket is still smaller than the target, and I smile. I drop less points than they do because my 6 creed shoots faster (3100 vs. 2800), and still has a very respectable BC (.275 vs. .310). So I can literally outrun their bullet to the target just enough to defy the wind, and not give up increased risk in my wind call.
Thank you! You painted the picture better than I was capable of getting across, and I personally really appreciate the illustration, mind if I save your visual aid for local use?
 
Thank you! You painted the picture better than I was capable of getting across, and I personally really appreciate the illustration, mind if I save your visual aid for local use?

Enjoy! For I stole it myself; the originator is cited in the graphic.
 
I like a 30 caliber magnum, but can be expensive to feed.
If you are a hunter picking the same cartridge can build on your confidence and ballistic knowledge of that cartridge.

My favorite hunting rifle is 7mm rem mag having a long range rifle in the same cartridge would be nice.
 
After reading all your requirements the 6.5 PRC keeps coming up in my mind. Altho I have 3 6.5 Creedmore platforms and two .264 win mags many years, if I had to buy one it would've a 6.5 PRC. It should take you to a mile.
 
Most all PRS shooters these days are using some form of a 6mm. The Dasher is the most popular followed closely by the 6mm Creedmoor. Some holdouts are still shooting the 6.5 Creedmoor but low recoil and the ability to spot your hits are the name of the game here.

As far as ballistics go, I thought that any given projectile moving a the same speed with the same ballistic coefficient with have the same amount of drift. No?

Forget about ballistic apps on your phone if you are planning on getting a Kestrel. Get one of the Kestrel 5700's with Applied Ballistics. All you will need your phone for is uploading your "loads" to the weather station. Doping the wind is not as hard as you think with some practice and the right equipment.

I shoot and compete with a 6mm Creedmoor. The rifle is an Impact Precision topped with a Nightforce ATACR 7-35x56 F1 with MIL-C reticule. First shot hits on a 24x24" steel plate at 1300 yards are common.

Now if you want penetrate body armor that far out, you are going to want a 300 Win Mag or 338 Lapua.

ZAiWaW6.jpg
 
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After reading all your requirements the 6.5 PRC keeps coming up in my mind. Altho I have 3 6.5 Creedmore platforms and two .264 win mags many years, if I had to buy one it would've a 6.5 PRC. It should take you to a mile.

Would be interested to know if the 6.5 PRC, with the long, ELD bullets, would fit into a short action, and, if so, what the penalty is for the deep seating depth.

Loaded long, assuming a std. length action, it is ballistically identical to the 6.5-06.




GR
 
So my question is this, assuming you have an accurate laser rangefinder and handheld weather station, a ballistic calculator app on your phone, and a specific platform with a specified action length you're planning to build your long range rifle on, wouldn't a large(r) caliber be the much better candidate over a small(er) caliber? After all the bullet drop of a large(r) caliber can be easily adjusted for and factored into the calculation with the help of the laser rangefinder and ballistic calculator, while the bullet drift of a small(er) caliber much less so, especially at very long ranges.

It seems like you're asking about rounds based on similar capacity cases, a matchup like a 6.5 Creedmoor versus a .308 with very heavy bullets. With the larger caliber you will run into practical problems of case capacity and such and your velocity will be very low.

I checked to see the calculated drop and drift at 1000 yards of various heavy bullets loaded in a .308-based case, with no COL restriction and assuming all were somehow magically stable:

PwZ14eL.png

So the answer is that going too heavy will not have less drift. Remember the pesky sound barrier and how it affects drag.
 
The rifle is an Impact Precision topped with a Nightforce ATACR 7-35 56 F1 with MIL-C reticule.
nice rifle! looks like the same rifle and stock (and scope) walkalong and i are running. but we're running dashers.
 
At 1,000 yards I shoot - 6.5x47L, .308 Palma - F-Class, Palma, F-TR and 1,000 yard benchrest. Now if your shooting distance is going to vary a lot, the more flat shooting cartridges may be for you. 6mm DASHER etc.

You can lob a .45-70 round into a tight group at 1,000 yards, but the POI will change a lot moving a few dozen yards either side of where you are sighted in.

For 100/200 Yard Bench Rest I shoot a 6PPC but for 300 yards I shot a 6mmBR Norma or a 30BR.

Bob
 
nice rifle! looks like the same rifle and stock (and scope) walkalong and i are running. but we're running dashers.
Tate sort of pointed me in the direction of the Dasher but I had shot a buddy of mine's 6 CM and thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. The thing was just a laser. Another reason I was drawn to the CM is that Lapua makes brass for it. From the numbers I am seeing, the Dasher is dominating PRS.
 
Yesterday my son and I went to the Peacemaker National Training Center (PNTC) in West Virginia to try out his two long range rifles. I'm not really into long range shooting, but at 20 yoa he's very much into it and into the hand loading and calculations with a phone AP that are mentioned in the OP.

First, with an out-of-the-box Mossberg Predator in .223 Remington and hand-loaded ammunition, along with my 4X Pilad (Russian) scope, using 62 grain SBHP bullets, I did hit the gong at 575 yards. OK so I mostly hit "around the gong", but I did manage to "tag" it three times out of 15 shots. Not too bad for an OTC rifle and a scope for less than $150 (LOL - luck counts! ) ;)

OK back to the OP, my son had an AR-10 that he used in .308 Winchester with 178 grain SBTHP bullets from Hornady, and he was hitting the plate at 1004 yards, AND he was also using an AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel with 120 grain SBTHP bullets, and hitting the same plate. What he learned at his very first long range try, was that the adjustments for the 6.5 Grendel to hit were a lot less, but..., the heavier .308 bullets while needing a lot more adjustment on the scope, he hit three shots in a row as the wind was less of a factor. He was also able, due to hand-loads, to mitigate the tendency for the .308 to drop below supersonic before reaching the target...at least according to his ballistic AP on his phone, and what they chronographed at the range the day before.

OF course there are a lot of other factors, humidity, altitude where we were vs. what it was down range, no wind vs. steady vs. wind gusts, his optics, what AP he used for the ballistics, and what wind meter etc. Sorry I can't give further details.

Except that his AR-10 before putting on the optic was just under $1000. The AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel was a little less with the optic. So IF you were on a budget, one might opt for the lighter, lower recoil set-up, and then work more on the range with that platform.

There was a nice fellow next to us using a custom built, very high end bolt-action rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor who had a very frustrating day. He was struggling to hit at 600 yards with it, while my son's 6.5 Grendel platform was popping the steel at 600 yards without much difficulty, prior to us moving over to the 900 to 1000+ yard steel targets. My son's gear was pretty much 1/3 the cost of the other fellow's rifle and accessories, but the other fellow just couldn't connect.

So with that example, it reinforced an old saying that I learned from a very capable gunsmith. His advice to shooters, when shooting IPSC Pistols, and wanting the best upgrades, or when shooting long range rifle, and wanting to use the best upgrades, was to get a very well crafted platform, and then train until your skill has exceeded what the platform will do. He'd say...,
The Magic is in The Wizard, not in The Wand.

LD
 
I just finished up a new build a few days ago,and I think my choice of calibers falls between the light bullet/high velocity and the heavy bullet moving slower mentalities.It's a 280 Ackley Improved.I'm fairly certain it is going to be a great rifle for long range shooting thanks to its balance of bullet weight and fairly high velocity.Early accuracy testing has shown it likes the Berger 168 grain classic hunter,which is the bullet I built the gun around.One of those moving along at nearly 3,000 FPS is very potent and accuracy in the .3's and .4's makes it a good choice for a lot of different shooting disciplines,as well as hunting.The rifle has a Shilen Select Match 26 inch barrel that's scary accurate and I'm a lond way from working up a load.I haven't had a chance to try them,but the Hornady 162 grain ELD has a BC in the lower .6's,which should come close to A 6.5 Creedmoor's BC,with a couple hundred FPS advantage at the muzzle of the 280.Very long range shooting is tough,and there are diminishing rewards as the distance increases.The rifle I put the tube on weighs in at 12 pounds,so recoil is easily managed.I also use a couple of really accurate 308's,and I think the 280 AI has noticeably less recoil unless I'm imagining things.
 
IThe rifle I put the tube on weighs in at 12 pounds,so recoil is easily managed.I also use a couple of really accurate 308's,and I think the 280 AI has noticeably less recoil unless I'm imagining things.
Unless your .308 weighs 15 lbs, you're not....if it does, you are.... As far as the creed, launching 140-142 gr bullets bc .625-.658 @2600, 156 bc .679 ~2500ish (24" barrel), yes you SHOULD have an edge....

I launch my 162s quite a bit faster (3200) from a lighter rifle and I'll say this: there's NOTHING in this weight of a rifle I'd rather run to elr, there's quite a few others in this weight I'd rather run to 1000 yds, mostly in 6mm. If you're going to compare the 08 class cartridges, the 6 and 6.5 are closER to a 7-08 than a .280-ai. In THAT class, you are just close enough to be compared to the smaller "magnum" cartridges, i.e. 7 rem mag, 6x284 Norma/ prc, .264 win, 6.5 leopard, .30-06 ai, etc, and in this class the numbers DO change......
That being said, awesome build (truly)! And it's hard to go wrong with this choice looking forward to seeing some 20 round group pics from WAY out there!!!!!!
 
I began my "long distance" journey a few years ago with a .243 (6mm). With it I shot a good amount out to the 500m distance (steel), dabbling some with punching paper at 1,000 yds. Navigating wind with that bullet out that far became a challenge. (The gun was a stock Rem 700.)

When the .243 got shot out I built an F-Class-capable rig. I chambered it in straight .284 (7mm), along with a 30" barrel, straight 1.25" cylinder contour. The beast is HEAVY. But I, like others have said, do not like recoil. I was pretty concerned about the .284's recoil but it is very manageable in this heavy configuration. I get 180gr VLD bullets to about 2,800 fps.

I like the .284 a lot.
 
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