Best defense reliability: pump or semi-auto?

[DHart]

I know that pumps are exceptionally reliable and that semi-autos can be very reliable, but how many of you semi-auto guys would choose a pump for defense reliability?

I have a 500A Persuader which functions flawlessly, but the allure of the fast-shooting semi-auto continues to call me... I'm just wondering if they can be considered AS reliable as a good pump is...

Been thinking about Remington's 1100 Competition Master, which is undoubtedly great for competition, but would it be equally suitable for defense?

My hesitation on that the long barrel (22") on the 1100 CM will be less nimble for home defense (vs. the more compact size of the 18.5" barrel on the 500A) and concerns about whether the 1100 CM semi-auto is as utterly reliable as the 500A pump.

Your opinions?

 

[PJR]

The semi-auto is maintenance and ammo dependent. If it's not clean or the ammo isn't powerful enough then it's not as reliable. With some models reliability can suffer if you starting hanging gadgets on the gun like a side saddle. Where the semi has an edge is that it is easier to operate than a pump.

The pump gun is more operator dependent. The gun can tie up if the operator isn't practiced in its use and short shucks the gun. Pumps require more practice but they are more mechanically reliable.

My choice is a Remington 870 but I make it a habit to take the gun out once a month at least to shoot clays just to stay familiar with its operation.

Paul

 

[cslinger]

I am a pump guy at heart but either can jam due to user error. You can short stroke the pump or improperly hold a recoiled operated semi auto like a Benelli.

Just means you have to practice practice practice..............read PLAY WITH THE GUNS

 

[Fred Fuller]

Nothing mechanical is 100% reliable. There are certain advantages to both autos and pumps but both can fail for various reasons. It is difficult for me to quantify these reliability issues with reliable numbers.

"Fast shooting" is more a matter of practice for the shooter with either operating system than for the operating system itself. There is no real practical speed advantage with a semiauto (practical equals lead on target, not just number of shots fired).

My own preference for a working gun is a pump. For a true 'house gun' it should be about six of one and half a dozen of another as far as reliability with autos vs. pumps go. But we live in the country and my house guns are all working guns that go outside with me when I go, come rain or shine, sand or mud. I'll stick with my 870s for that role.

lpl/nc

 

[Zundfolge]

In a crisis situation you will not "rise to the occasion" you will instead "sink to your highest level of training".

A semi-auto will be more simple to use under stress (of course PJR is right if you're using an untested shotgun/ammo combination).


So it doesn't matter which you get ... practice, practice, practice!

 

[DHart]

Is the Benelli M4 the ultimate autoloading 12 gauge defense gun?

Cost aside, the Benelli M4 with pistol grip buttstock looks like superb defense shotgun... is this about as good as it gets? Or does it recoil too much (I known the pistol grip buttstock option helps a LOT in absorbing recoil). Is Remington's 11-87 aconsidered as good a choice?

 

[el44vaquero]

Given the two choices..........

I would go with the pump. Can be very effective with a little bit of practice, not to mention the distinctive sound it makes when it chambers one.

 

[yorec]

Well, my 11-87 has been 100% reliable with proper loads so far... Guess it'll do for me as I can shoot it much faster than any of my pumps.

 

[Jack2427]

The comments about pumps & semi autos are generally well taken. However(there is ALWAYS a however or a but), either type properly maintained will serve well. The M4 w/pistol grip does NOT reduce recoil. A pistol grip never does that. Precieved recoil is a combination of factors of which stock is but one, although a major factor. I have one (or more) of just about every tactical shotgun produced since 1887. The precieved recoil will be affected by the action type, for example gas operated SGs will give you less precieved recoil as some of the gas is redirected backwards to operate the action. Long recoil actions give some a increased sense of recoil because of the "double hit" from the firing and then the action slamming back just after. A short recoil operated gun is very sensitive to "limp wristing", that is if not held properly the reliability of the action will be affected. THAT is where the pistol grip MIGHT help some people, if the weapon is held for "hip shooting"(which it never should be), the pistol grip might enable the gunner to exert the necessary firm hold necessary for reliable functioning, I find that I can do this just fine with a standard stock.
I do not like pistol grips, except on folding stocks, which are for use in tight enclosed places like vehicles and aircraft, the stoock to be extended ASAP for action.
One last thing, a semi auto will not necessarily fire faster than a pump. A trained shooter can fire a decent pump action as fast or faster than a semi auto.
For extended firepower, a double with ejectors takes the trophy. Before anyone laughs and brandishes their "tacked up" auto, think. For 50 rounds I can fire my Browning SXS faster than any other type, and over 50 rounds the gap widens. The reason? I will be firing 2 rounds every 1.5 seconds, the pump or auto shooter has to stop every 5-8 rounds for an extended reload period, during which I will keep on shooting. I am not saying I would rather have my double in a serious social situation than my 870 or 1100 with extended mags, just pointing out that sustained fire is not necessarily the same as rapid fire.

 

[1 old 0311]

Ever try to fire a pump from the prone position?

Kevin

 

[Dave McCracken]

Kevin, yes. So?....

A trained hand with either is deadly. Pick your tool and learn it. BA/UU/R.....

 

[Marshall]

DHart, today's semi-auto's give me no cause for concern in the reliability department. As far as the 22" bbl is concerned, it shouldn't be a problem either. I think if you handle that gun you'll see it the same way.

Another option for a good semi-auto HD gun is the 11-87 Sportsman Youth. It's 1" shorter in the stock and comes with a 21" bbl with Rem-Choke. It's a quick gun and would make a very fine quail gun too. It's a 3" chamber 20 ga, not a 12ga but a 20ga is just fine for both HD and Upland hunting. The vent rib bbl is nice as well.

 

[LaEscopeta]

Ever try to fire a pump from the prone position?

Sure, FIRERING prone is not problem. Pumping the action while prone, now that's a little tricky, especaily while trying to keep the target sighted, and without raising up or rolling out from behind cover. Trickier and harder than a semi-auto of course, but possible.

 

[willeo6709]

The best home D shotgun is the one you have the no problem betting your life on. If you have any inkling of doubt in it, the game is up. I have seen guys do amazing things with well worn model 12 winchesters( and that was basically the only gun they I had seen them carry afield in 20 years). I have seen people who did not like pumps because they did not shuck it like they meant it. If I had a reliable shotgun I would not buy anything new for home D. 1 less thing to learn is 1 less thing to forget in the rush of the moment.

 

[Prometheus]

I have a 500 persuader I keep for home defense as well.

The plus of a pump is reliability on the weapon side.

The minus is the user. In a self defense situation it's possible to short stroke it, forget to pump it...

I picked the 500 for cost reasons, I can't justify spending any more money on a weapon that has only one purpose: To live beside the bed. The shotgun (at this point) is a backup anyway for the .45. If I have to leave the bedroom it'll be to get the kids and a sidearm is my choice. It's just too difficult to navigate most homes with a long arm IMO.

 

[DougW]

Remington 870, Mossburg 500, Winchester 1300, etc are excellant for HD situations. As has been stated before, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE! My current HD shotguns are a Benelli M1 Super 90 Tactical (used in 3 gun matches) and an older Remington 1100. The Combat Master, 1100, and 11-87 are used a lot in the 3 gun matches I attend, but so are the first three pump guns I mentioned. I have competed in the past with an 870 (prone), but I like a self shucker better. You have to descide what YOUR tactical situation and comfort level requires. I can shoot the Benelli real fast and accurately, but that is because I shoot it a lot and I use reduced recoil buck and slugs. But, there are a lot of competitors that shoot their pumps just as fast.

The Benelli Nova would also be a very good HD pump.

BTW, I have the Benelli because a good friend got in a divorce bind and made me a Godfather Proposition. It has good and bad points too, now that I have it. That is why I kept the 1100.

 

[Borachon]

One of my friends was in the South African military before moving to this country. He told me that they were always issued semi auto shotguns for crowd control. The semi auto didn't need any additional work...you just aimed and fired. The only concern you had was to remember to reload. In a pinch, you can fire the gun one handed...something he witnessed when one of the other officers got hit by a panga ,which is some kind of African sword, while going into an apartment. With a semi auto he didn't have to have both arms working to keep shooting.

I don't own either a pump or a semi...but I'll be getting one or the other soon. I've learned the value of them from talking to my friends and family on the Mississippi Gulf Coast.

 

[DHart]

Thanks for the info. I'm convinved a semi-auto is a great shotty to have so now I'm trying to decide which one. M2, 1100 Competition Master, or 11-87 Police. I think I'll make another thread for the comparison...

 

[1911 guy]

A word of caution

Many of the newer models of autoloaders use an "improved" recoil system to return to battery that is shooter dependant. A goose hunting buddy can make his Benelli malfunction on demand. Never has it happen in the pits, but it can and does happen if your position is compromised and not rock steady. Are you sure you can get into a "good" position in a HD situation and not be in a bad position? I'd rather cater my position to cover and survivability than function of my firearm.

 

[conan]

I do not have much shotgun experiance, but there is noway a pump can fire as fast as a Benelli. I know I have short stroked an 870 & H&K on more than one occausion.

 

[buzz meeks]

conan- Spend some time around experienced pump gunners and you might change your mind. Find an old-timer with a well-used Ithaca 37 and he'll enlighten you.

 

[pauli]

semis are great for those who trust them; me, i'll be sticking to pump actions. they just feel right, which is pretty darn important in something you may have to depend on in a pinch.

 

[Chipperman]

I agree with conan.

Tom Knapp (who is arguably the fastest shotgunner in the world) can shoot 10 clays in the air with the semi, and 8 with the pump.

Now pumps can be lightning fast, as Tom Knapp shows, but not as fast as a good semi.

 

[DHart]

I have no doubt that a pump CAN be as fast as anyone is likely to need in a defense scenario... more importantly, however, I think the semi-auto has one advantage: the only thing required for rapid, repeated launching of 00 Buckshot is just continuing to pull the trigger... that's what continues to draw me to the semi-auto! No pumping required, no having to remember to pump, or worries about shortstroking... just hold firmly and keep pulling the trigger... there is something really great about that.

I've heard that if well maintained and used with standard loads (not light-loads), the 1100 and 11/87 semis are defense reliable... especially for a homeowner who isn't going to be subjecting the gun to the rigors and muck of war conditions. Another bonus that I've heard is that the 11/87 is about the softest shooting 12 ga. out there... less felt recoil than pretty much anything else.

These are great reasons to consider an 1100 or 11/87.

I understand the inertia-system of the Benelli makes it possible for the gun to eject a live shell simply by rapidly jerking the shotgun forward, as you might in jabbing someone with the muzzle. Gabe Suarez comments on this on the WarriorTalk forum. Gives some pause when considering the M1 or?2 Benelli. Noteworthy also that Benelli's M4 uses gas recoil rather than the inertia-system... hmmmmm.

I have no intention of giving up my Mossberg 18.5" 12 ga. Persuader, but for a semi-auto shotty, I'm considering the 11/87 Police or the Benelli M2... either with 18.5" barrel.

I'm leaning toward the 11/87 Police due to it's mild recoil characteristics.

I'm possibly shying away from the Benelli M2 because of the possible inertia-system problems and higher felt recoil.

Speed of firing is good enough for me with any of these (Benelli, 11/87, 1100).

The 1100 Competition Master is an awesome shotgun, for sure, but I've concluded that the 22" barrel is just too long for home defense use... too bad that gun isn't offered with an 18.5" barrel! Of course then it's high capacity of 8+1 rounds would be lost as well. Dang... no perfect gun out there, is there!

Neither pump nor semi-auto is perfect... more opinions welcome...

 

[1911 guy]

10 with auto, 8 with pump.

Yep, but whose patches are on his shirt? What guns are they telling him to pitch? When you've seen a few hillbillies take deer, pheasant and rabbits with pumps that sounded like autos (no, not SEMI autos) you will gain a new appreciation for the design of the pump shotgun. The break open design and pump have lasted so long because they work. Auto loaders have been around for many years, too, but here we are discussing the merits over a pump.