Best Heller brief yet

Status
Not open for further replies.

Soodonim

Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
15
As a law student, I have read countless and written a few legal briefs. Nelson Lund's brief, here http://www.gurapossessky.com/news/parker/documents/07-290bsacSecondAmendmentFoundation.pdf is by far the best I have ever read. It is much more technical and legally focused than some, but a very good read nonetheless. While I have agreed with many of the anti-gun control briefs that discuss policy, this is a fundamental and Constitutional right, so policy isn't relevant.

To sum it up, legal scholars, even many liberals, agree that the Second Amendment protects exactly what it says it does. In this case, we would be better off asking a third grader what the Second Amendment means than we have been asking the Supreme Court for almost 70 years.
 
Last edited:
Very impressive. Assuming, of course, that members of the court intend to be diligent in understanding the truth and not, as in the case of many other reviews, merely activists seeking to impose a certain agenda upon the citizens, this brief could provide some very good insight (certainly better than international law).

Ash
 
They are going to be wading through so much garbage that there is a real danger the good stuff is going to get lost.
 
I only have two bones to pick with Mr. Lund.

The first is on page 29, in the following paragraph:

When Congress sent the Bill of Rights to the
states for ratification, it described its provisions as
“declaratory and restrictive clauses” meant to “prevent
misconstruction or abuse of [the Constitution’s]
powers.”50 The Second Amendment has both declaratory
and restrictive elements. The words of praise for
the militia in the Second Amendment are a declaration
of respect for the traditional militia system, which
might – or in practice might not – provide an
alternative to the standing armies that many citizens
feared. That explains both why the declaratory,
preambular language was included, and why the
Amendment was so carefully drafted to ensure that
the restriction on federal infringement of the people’s
right to arms is not dependent on its actually contributing
to the maintenance of a well regulated militia.

The word I highlighted in bold - federal - should be eliminated. I would bet the farm that Nelson Lund does not believe the Second Amendment only limits the federal government. Anyone with such a clear understanding of the Constitution and its background could not hold such a premise honestly.

The second is on page 33, in the following paragraph:

Even more important, a significant gap has
developed between civilian and military small arms.
Eighteenth century Americans commonly used the
same arms for civilian and military purposes, but
today’s infantry and organized militia are equipped
with an array of highly lethal weaponry that civilians
do not employ for self defense or other important
lawful purposes. The Constitution does not require
this Court
to blind itself to that post-Miller reality, or
to hold that the civilian population has a right to
keep every weapon that the militia can expect to find
useful if called to active duty.

That which I highlighted in bold is antithetical to all else he wrote in this brief! This whole paragraph could and should be eliminated from the brief. It adds nothing but a contradiction to all that precedes it and is not necessary to introduce all that follows.

Overall, without those two major flaws, this would have been as perfect an amicus curiae brief as I've yet seen in this case. Why do people think they need to sacrifice something, or leave an "out" for the Court when they know what should be demanded of the Court? When they know the Court knows as much what is right as they themselves know? If I were on the Court, I'd be insulted. I'm insulted and I'm far from being on the Court.

Oh, well. I guess I can't complain too much. I'm not a member of the SAF. I may never be.

Woody

"I pledge allegiance to the rights that made and keep me free. I will preserve and defend those rights for all who live in this Union, founded on the belief and principles that those rights are inalienable and essential to the pursuit and preservation of life, liberty, and happiness." B.E.Wood
 
They are going to be wading through so much garbage that there is a real danger the good stuff is going to get lost.
I doubt that. Lawyers, and especially jurists, are trained to wade through garbage, looking for the good stuff. What I've found interesting about the amica briefs is that most of them focus on a very specific perspective or point of view, and that few of them overlap. The Court will start with the petitioner and respondent briefs, and if they have questions or concerns that are maybe not addressed as fully in those briefs as they'd like, they'll look to see if any amica brief treats the matter. The clerks will undoubtedly be tasked with coming up with synopses of each, so that it will be easy to find what they are looking for.
 
The Constitution does not require
this Court to blind itself to that post-Miller reality, or
to hold that the civilian population has a right to
keep every weapon that the militia can expect to find
useful if called to active duty.

I believe that Mr. Lund is correct in his assessment, although probably not in the way you are thinking. What I mean is, the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution does not say, "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear militia-specific arms shall not be infringed." However, it also does not say, "A well regulated... to keep and bear arms of a non-military nature shall not be infringed."

So, to me this means that if I want to own a .17 HMR for hunting, that is protected. But so is an M203, if I so desire.
 
It's a great brief. And the SAF is a great organization. FWIW, every dime you give to them is tax deductible.

The "problems" cited by Cowboy seem an awful lot like "reasonable restrictions" that have been debated here (and mostly trashed) many times.

What Lund is trying to do is to prevent The Court from finding in favor of DC out of fear that if they do otherwise they will make the government helpless to regulate NFA weapons, destructive devices, etc.

I believe that one or more of the "anti" briefs has attempted to make just that argument or something very similar. It's a weak argument, but Lund probably figured he should counter it anyway.
 
the argument on reasonable restriction is a strong one. it's thrown about through the antis' emotional perspectives, as is all of their other anti-gun ideas, even though that one is the only one (in my opinion) that holds its share of weight. They use it out of fear the same way they use high-profile criminal incidents. Countering every argument is necessary, especially that one, since--even though it makes sense on restricting certain weapons--it allows a foothold for them to turn an inch into a mile, so to speak.
 
Although the SAF brief is very good, I think the Texas and (30) Other States brief is the best. The States brief tears DC's arguments to shreds and does the same to the Solicitor General's worries about invalidating federal firearms laws.

The word I highlighted in bold - federal - should be eliminated. I would bet the farm that Nelson Lund does not believe the Second Amendment only limits the federal government.

Professor Lund's brief does not appear to have been written by someone who would casually include irrelevant, extraneous, or inaccurate words in his arguments.

What Lund is trying to do is to prevent The Court from finding in favor of DC out of fear that if they do otherwise they will make the government helpless to regulate NFA weapons, destructive devices, etc.

The Court does not have to find in favor of DC to preserve "reasonable restrictions" - it only needs to uphold the Appeals Court decision to reach that end.
 
Nor should the Court blind itself to other contemporary realities, the most important of which is the problem of criminal violence, and the inability of the government to control it...The Court should recognize that the broader purpose of the Second Amendment emerges readily from the Constitution’s founding principles.

Those founding principles are summed up in the familiar liberal axioms set out in the Declaration of Independence. In liberal theory, the most fundamental of all rights is the right of self defense.

Thomas Hobbes, the founder of modern liberalism, advanced this proposition with his customary forcefulness when he acknowledged only one natural right, and described it as “the Liberty each man hath, to use his own power, as he will himself, for the preservation of his own Nature; that is to say, of his own Life.”

I bet many of you didn't know you were liberals, did you? :neener:
 
"I would bet the farm that Nelson Lund does not believe the Second Amendment only limits the federal government. Anyone with such a clear understanding of the Constitution and its background could not hold such a premise honestly."

Haha, yeah Constitution Cowboy, you are right, Lund is not perfect, but I will defend him on the Second Amendment as a federal issue statement. The text of the Second Amendment precludes Congress from infringing on the right to bear arms. Firstly, in the instant case, that is moot because Congress does indeed have authority over DC.
But that doesn't mean that states can automaticly take away the right to bear arms either. The 14th Amendment precludes the state from depriving citizens of life liberty or property without due process. The next question is determining what these rights are. The Court has said that "fundamental" rights are protected from state interference. These rights include free speach, religion, etc. You and I agree that the right to bear arms is a fundamental right, a protector of all other rights. We also both know the Constitution does not create or give rights, only protects them from government interference.
The trick is convincing the courts to this. So even a win for the good guys in Heller doesn't mean that state gun control laws will necesarily be changed. There might also have to be another lawsuit, one brought against New York City for example, for the Supreme Court to finally recognize the right to bear arms is fundamental and therefore the States cannot infringe on it.
 
The word I highlighted in bold - federal - should be eliminated. I would bet the farm that Nelson Lund does not believe the Second Amendment only limits the federal government.

Lund is discussing the purpose of the amendment at the time it was passed. The Bill of Rights did not limit the powers of the states until 80 years after the Constitution was ratified. Some of the amendments still do not apply to the states. I'm sure Lund meant exactly what he said.

What I've found interesting about the amica briefs is that most of them focus on a very specific perspective or point of view, and that few of them overlap.

This was apparantly deliberate.
 
Indeed, even if it could be proved beyond all doubt that disarming the people is necessary to the security of a free state, still the right of the people to keep and bear arms would remain unchanged.

Which reminds me, how is New Orleans doing now?
 
New Orleans is doing just fine. There are plenty of places abandoned, but business is going on and folks are going to and from their jobs. Those who announced that New Orleans was destroyed (there were many, and of those, many were from New Orleans) were exaggerating. I've been there many times since the storm. Still wouldn't live there, but then, I was not surprised when I found out about the martial law and heavy-handed tactics used against people. Constitution be darned.

Ash
 
frankie the yankee said:
What Lund is trying to do is to prevent The Court from finding in favor of DC out of fear that if they do otherwise they will make the government helpless to regulate NFA weapons, destructive devices, etc.

The Constitution already does make the government helpless to regulate NFA weapons, destructive devices, etc. Any lack of Court action upholding that is at the least bad behavior.

Soodonim said:
The text of the Second Amendment precludes Congress from infringing on the right to bear arms.

Sure would like you to point that out to me.

Dallas239 said:
Lund is discussing the purpose of the amendment at the time it was passed. The Bill of Rights did not limit the powers of the states until 80 years after the Constitution was ratified.

This has been claimed over and over but has never been proven, especially when there is evidence that the authors of the amendment intended it to prohibit the states as well, to wit:

Mr. Madison from the Congressional Record of 8 June, 1789, debating the proposal of a Bill of Rights:

It has been said, by way of objection to a bill of rights, by many respectable gentlemen out of doors, and I find opposition on the same principles likely to be made by gentlemen on this floor, that they are unnecessary articles of a Republican Government, upon the presumption that the people have those rights in their own hands, and that is the proper place for them to rest. It would be a sufficient answer to say, that this objection lies against such provisions under the State Governments, as well as under the General Government; and there are, I believe, but few gentlemen who are inclined to push their theory so far as to say that a declaration of rights in those cases is either ineffectual or improper. It has been said, that in the Federal Government they are unnecessary, because the powers are enumerated, and it follows, that all that are not granted by the Constitution are retained; that the Constitution is a bill of powers, the great residuum being the rights of the people; and, therefore, a bill of rights cannot be so necessary as if the residuum was thrown into the hands of the Government. I admit that these arguments are not entirely without foundation; but they are not conclusive to the extent which has been supposed. It is true, the powers of the General Government are circumscribed, they are directed to particular objects; but even if Government keeps within those limits, it has certain discretionary powers with respect to the means, which may admit of abuse to a certain extent, in the same manner as the powers of the State Governments under their constitutions may to an indefinite extent; because in the Constitution of the United States, there is a clause granting to Congress the power to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution all the powers vested in the Government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof; this enables them to fulfil every purpose for which the Government was established. Now, may not laws be considered necessary and proper by Congress, for it is for them to judge of the necessity and propriety to accomplish those special purposes which they may have in contemplation, which laws in themselves are neither necessary nor proper; as well as improper laws could be enacted by the State Legislatures, for fulfilling the more extended objects of those Governments. I will state an instance, which I think in point, and proves that this might be the case. The General Government has a right to pass all laws which shall be necessary to collect its revenue; the means for enforcing the collection are within the direction of the Legislature: may not general warrants be considered necessary for this purpose, as well as for some purposes which it was supposed at the framing of their constitutions the State Governments had in view? If there was reason for restraining the State Governments from exercising this power, there is like reason for restraining the Federal Government.

It may be said, indeed it has been said, that a bill of rights is not necessary, because the establishment of this Government has not repealed those declarations of rights which are added to the several State constitutions; that those rights of the people, which had been established by the most solemn act, could not be annihilated by a subsequent act of that people, who meant, and declared at the head of the instrument, that they ordained and established a new system, for the express purpose of securing to themselves and posterity the liberties they had gained by an arduous conflict.

I admit the force of this observation, but I do not look upon it to be conclusive. In the first place, it is too uncertain ground to leave this provision upon, if a provision is at all necessary to secure rights so important as many of those I have mentioned are conceived to be, by the public in general, as well as those in particular who opposed the adoption of this Constitution. Besides, some States have no bills of rights, there are others provided with very defective ones, and there are others whose bills of rights are not only defective, but absolutely improper; instead of securing some in the full extent which republican principles would require, they limit them too much to agree with the common ideas of liberty.

It has been objected also against a bill of rights, that, by enumerating particular exceptions to the grant of power, it would disparage those rights which were not placed in that enumeration; and it might follow, by implication, that those rights which were not singled out, were intended to be assigned into the hands of the General Government, and were consequently insecure. This is one of the most plausible arguments I have ever heard urged against the admission of a bill of rights into this system; but, I conceive, that it may be guarded against. I have attempted it, as gentlemen may see by turning to the last clause of the fourth resolution.

It has been said, that it is unnecessary to load the Constitution with this provision, because it was not found effectual in the constitution of the particular States. It is true, there are a few particular States in which some of the most valuable articles have not, at one time or other, been violated; but it does not follow but they may have, to a certain degree, a salutary effect against the abuse of power. If they are incorporated into the Constitution, independent tribunals of justice will consider themselves in a peculiar manner the guardians of those rights; they will be an impenetrable bulwark against every assumption of power in the Legislative or Executive; they will be naturally led to resist every encroachment upon rights expressly stipulated for in the Constitution by the declaration of rights. Besides this security, there is a great probability that such a declaration in the federal system would be enforced; because the State Legislatures will jealously and closely watch the operations of this Government, and be able to resist with more effect every assumption of power, than any other power on earth can do; and the greatest opponents to a Federal Government admit the State Legislatures to be sure guardians of the people's liberty. I conclude, from this view of the subject, that it will be proper in itself, and highly politic, for the tranquillity of the public mind, and the stability of the Government, that we should offer something, in the form I have proposed, to be incorporated in the system of Government, as a declaration of the rights of the people.

Here is the source on this web site.

Woody

This crap will continue until the Court stops allowing itself to be misused as a legislative branch of government, or as an alternative to amending the Constitution. B.E. Wood
 
Last edited:
Constitution Cowboy: you are right, I was unclear about that. But the Bill of Rights only limited federal action, it took the 14th Amendment to incorporate the Bill of Rights to apply to the state as well, and as we can see, one of those fundamental rights, the right to bear arms, is still not incorporated, so the system is far from perfect. Look at the First Amendment's ban on Congress from establsihing a church. Many states, such as Connecticutt, had official relgions after the Constitution was ratified. Check here: http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/arg12.htm
Furthermore, I am sorry if I came off as too confrontational here, I think we are splitting hairs about the past, the important thing now is that the Second Amendment rights should be extended to the states, and get rid of all of these gun control laws that are not only bad policy, but unconstiutional as well.
 
"The first is on page 29"

Page 29??? Why do they call them briefs if they aren't brief? Are they getting paid by the word to write them?

I know, too many questions. I think I'll go back to watching 'em make sausage because making laws is so messy.

John
 
If they are incorporated into the Constitution, independent tribunals of justice will consider themselves in a peculiar manner the guardians of those rights; they will be an impenetrable bulwark against every assumption of power in the Legislative or Executive; they will be naturally led to resist every encroachment upon rights expressly stipulated for in the Constitution by the declaration of rights.

Someone should tell the Justices who invented/follow the "rational basis" test about this. Almost every "encroachment" enacted by the Congress has been upheld unless it involves race, smut, or fetuses. Remember the principled (?) "switch in time that saved nine"?
 
Soodonim

You being a law student, there will likely be much we disagree on. I can only imagine what you are being taught. That said, I don't intend it as a derision of you or the path you have chosen, but more toward the biases being inculcated by the academic establishment.

I hold that the rights we enjoy(or are supposed to enjoy) were protected in the "Bill of Rights" and those protections were cast as a wide blanket across all government when they were written. I refer you to Madison's speech that I linked to earlier. They protect rights of individuals, after all.

As for the "incorporation" debacle we hear so much about, I would posit that the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment is all the "incorporation" needed. Congress proposed it, and the several states ratified it. If anything, the power granted in Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment to Congress is all that is needed to enforce the provisions of this amendment if any of the several states hesitate or ignore the dictates in the amendment, and I do not believe Congress enacted any law leaving it up to the Court(which Congress couldn't do anyway).

For all intents and purposes, all the Fourteenth Amendment did in regard to our rights and freedoms is to extend the rights and freedoms in the First Amendment to the several states and grant power to Congress to enforce the protections of all our rights and freedoms on the several states.

It is my beliefs - shared by many - that bring such cases to the Court. We see the injustices and the usurpations and challenge them. Heller and company are such individuals who, having been injured by unconstitutional law, have brought this case to the Court. The court below agrees with us. Now it is in the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. We shall see if there are mice or men on the Court. Men will trust the people and honor the Constitution. Mice will hide under their own robes and hobble the people.

Anyway, we needn't convince the Court of anything other than that their private agendas will no longer be tolerated. We didn't grant them power to limit or tear our rights apart, but to protect those rights. They should also know that if they don't protect our rights we will do it ourselves. There are limits to what the people will stand for, and our knees are buckling.

Back to the brief, Lund spelled most of this out very well, then caved. I can only hope that if the Court gives this brief any weight, the Court will see his obvious offer of an out and disregard it for the unnecessary scape goat that it is. If those on the Court have the stones to stand up to the usurpers, they'll not even consider running for cover.

Woody

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law....an oligarchy...the rule of few over many.
 
Counting all the Briefs to date and adding in the District's reply brief, there is at least 500,000 words on file that someone will have to read.
 
I bet many of you didn't know you were liberals, did you?

I've known that I was a liberal ever since I learned that the root of the word is liber--free. The same Latin word is also the root of the English "liberty." But because the word "liberal" has been coopted and redefined by those who actually believe freedom is a bad thing and should be kept from the the common citizen, I have had to resort to describing myself as a "classical liberal." This frequently leads to interesting discussions of political philosophy. ;)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top