best rugged red-dot for AK gas-tube mount?

[max popenker]

Hello

This is on behalf of the man whom I know; he's an operator in Russian SWAT-type unit, and doesn't speak English at all.

He wants to customize his AK-74 with some sort of red-dot sight, using replacement gas tube with integral rail.

The problem is to wind a balance between ruggedness, reliability and cost - Trijicon, Aimpoint and EOTech sights are way overpriced down here.

Any other brand/model suggestions or he should stick to those three major brands?

remember, the sight will be used in real combat.

Now he uses Kobra sight with AK side-mount, but it is heavy and glass is already too scratched for comfortable use.


Thanks.

 

[rangerruck]

if he has not bought the gas/rail yet, please have him look at the best, first.
www.texasweaponsystems.com
Actually, the cheapy red dots here all have great reps; the tasco, BSA, and bushnell, and I have had 2 and they have been very reliable.
But about combat usage, I do not know. I have not treated any of them that rough. We need someone with experience to come along.

I would call the owner of the above, and give him the specific name/type of 74 your friend has,
to make sure the adapter on the rear, will work on his weapon.

you may wanna look at burris, truglo, or Mako as well.

 

[max popenker]

specific name/type of 74 your friend has

well, he has THE AK-74, as made in Izhevsk and issued by Russian army

Thanks for link, will check it

 

[RobMoore]

Didn't see the part about him using it on duty the first read through, disregard any endorsement of aimpoint copies.

 

[stork]

Only one I would recommend is Ultra Dot. My main wad gun (custom 1911 45ACP) has a slide mounted 1" Ultra Dot that has seen over 35,000 rounds through it. That's 70,000 slams back and forth. I finally replaced it in 2007, not because it failed, I just felt nervous about taking it to Camp Perry with that many rounds on the dot. I put it on one of my Ruger MKII's and it is still running just fine.

FWIW

 

[seanie!]

If he's going to be using it in real combat, why not spring for the best? I know that's what I would do.

 

[AK103K]

I 've used a number of the "cheap" (most werent what I consider cheap, and cost over $100 US) red dots, and none of them held up to even moderate use when used on my AK's.

The best combo I've found has been the Ultimak rail with an Aimpoint Comp M2/ML2 on them. They are the models I have had for a number of years now, they have been surpassed by newer, and more improved models. The Ultmak is well made, solid, and have seen actual use in Iraq. The Aimpoints are in use with our military, so they are not "toys". They are rugged and dont have the battery issues the others have. The shortest lived Aimpoints are the M2's, and they last a little over one year (10,000 hours), and thats "on" at a setting just above the median, 24/7/365. The newest models run almost nine years now.

This combination will allow you to cowitness the dot to the stock iron sights with the use of an Aimpoint "low" ring. The rifle shoulders and shoots just like it does with the iron sights, and has the same cheek weld. There is nothing faster and easier to shoot with, and you can easily snap shoot targets at most any distance. I've shot AK's with the Kobra on them, and there is absolutely no comparison.

Both items are not "cheap", but you are getting what you pay for, real world gear that has actual time in the real world. Total cheapest package will probably run you around $550 US.

 

[max popenker]

If he's going to be using it in real combat, why not spring for the best?

cost is an issue.
Local prices for Aimpoint or Trijicon (or Surefire, or Spyderco, if you care) are about 2 times above your average street price :banghead:

 

[inherentical]

Aimpoint T-1 on an Ultimak rail.

 

[AK103K]

I guess what it boils down to Max, is what is your (or his) life worth?

At the very least, if your going to go cheap, get one of the true Aimpoint copies and use the low ring, at least that way, you still have your iron sights instantly available, should the dot fail. I dont know of any others that will cowitness.

The Larue Iron Dot might be another option, but I havent seen them really on the market yet, nor do I know of anyone who has one, or even heard of anyone who has one.

 

[RECIT]

I agree with seanie! about getting the best available if your life is on the line. I would either get an Aimpoint or LaRue Iron dot or a Trijicon reflex or 1.5x ACOG. If my life is on the line I want the absolute best available. My .02

 

[DWhitehorne]

Since you friend is in Russia, what about something like the Kobra PK-01 with the removable side rail or the PK-23 and mount it up front on the ultimak. David

http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/detail.aspx?ID=109

http://www.avtomats-in-action.com/bstakoptics.html sixth picture down the page

 

[benEzra]

Gabe Suarez really likes an Aimpoint or Aimpoint Micro on an Ultimak rail, BUT since those are crazy expensive over there, he might be able to find a new eastern bloc PK-AS or Kobra to sit on an Ultimak or on the existing receiver siderail. Given shipping and exchange rates, that'd be the cheapest way to go.

Added on edit: DWhitehorne, you beat me to it!

FWIW, I do like the concept of the IronDot, but since it is rather new, its durability is uncertain, and it costs almost as much as an Aimpoint.

 

[nalioth]

I guess what it boils down to Max, is what is your (or his) life worth?

Oh please.

The guy's not buying this on his employer's dime - he's having to out-of-pocket it. Would you spend "what your life's worth", only to have your family go on a lean diet or not have heat in the winter?


Mr. Popenker, I believe I have seen PK series red dots for sale with Picatinny mounts instead of the milspec side mount. Perhaps one of these would be the right choice?

If they don't produce those particular variants, how much difficulty would it be to pull the side mount off of a milspec model and replace it with Picatinny rings?

 

[AK103K]

Oh please.

The guy's not buying this on his employer's dime - he's having to out-of-pocket it. Would you spend "what your life's worth", only to have your family go on a lean diet or not have heat in the winter?

If he's dead due to faulty gear, it'll be lean either way.

And yes, I spend more than I can afford for stuff that I know works. You can make up for it in other places. Nobody has starved or done without heat here.

Yet anyway.

 

[DBR]

If you use an Ultimak type mount the optic better have a high heat rating. I don't know if even an Aimpoint could stand the heat coming off the gas tube in real combat with full auto fire. Even if the optic could stand the heat the battery might not.

A different mount over the cover with back up iron sights would be my choice. There are very few electronic sights that are really ready for serious combat use and none of them are inexpensive.

 

[AK103K]

The Ultimak is aluminum and doesnt hold heat. It sheds it quickly.

I've had M2/ML2's on Ultimaks since they were the "current" Aimpoint, and on a number of occasions have shot the guns quickly enough, mag after mag, to the point you couldnt touch the barrels, and the wooden lower handguard was smoking on the one gun, and never had any problems. Even then, your fingers can still be touching the edge of the Ultimak just above the lower handguard, and while it is warm, I havent been burned by them yet. It wasnt full auto mag after mag, but it was close enough. Realistically, I doubt you'd be shooting the gun like that anyway.

I was worried more about the Aimpoint on my M1A SOCOM's steel rail more, due to it retaining the heat, and never had an issue there either.

 

[DBR]

Aluminum conducts heat much faster than steel. While it may cool off faster heat is transmitted from the aluminum Ultimak to the aluminum Aimpoint much faster than if the parts were steel.

I don't know how much heat the Aimpoint or its battery can tolerate but mounting on the gas tube is a pretty hostile environment for an electronic sight. Deterioration of solid state electronics from heat can be a progressive problem getting worse with each exposure.

For a weapon my life depended on I would not chose a gas tube mount.

 

[seanie!]

I don't know how much heat the Aimpoint or its battery can tolerate but mounting on the gas tube is a pretty hostile environment for an electronic sight. Deterioration of solid state electronics from heat can be a progressive problem getting worse with each exposure.

For a weapon my life depended on I would not chose a gas tube mount.

One of the benefits of using an Ultimak is that you can co-witness in the event your optic fails. I've seen several side mounts that the iron sights are obscured by. If the optic fails with that, you pop the quick release(provided it has one) and you're back to your iron sights. With an Ultimak, you save a step. I'd stake my life on an Ultimak, because it's not like I'd be using any kind of magnification with any optic I would mount on one. If I lose the reticle, I'm right back to using my irons. No muss, no fuss. That's the point of it.

 

[AK103K]

Aluminum conducts heat much faster than steel. While it may cool off faster heat is transmitted from the aluminum Ultimak to the aluminum Aimpoint much faster than if the parts were steel.

Its been my experience that the guns run cooler with the Ultimak than the original handguard or with the steel type rails like the SOCOM's use. The sights are not subject to a sustained heat for any real length of time.

Deterioration of solid state electronics from heat can be a progressive problem getting worse with each exposure.

What kind of time period are we talking here? I have 6 or 7 years of fairly constant use on the oldest of mine now, and they are still going strong.

For as long as this type combination has been around and being used, I would think if this were an issue, we'd have heard about it by now.

If you dont like the idea of the gas tube mount, dont use it. You do have other options available, and your the one who has to be comfortable with your choices.

Having used both, and even if the forward mount did cause the sight to be shorter lived, which I dont believe it does, I'd probably still go with it, simply due to how much better the gun performs with it mounted in that fashion.

 

[rangerruck]

the texasweapons system rail not only lets you co witness, but has a new adjustable, low profile windage/elevation sight for the rear of the rail, top notch!
and that rail is more stable, and sits lower, than the ultimak rail.

 

[AK103K]

Do they use a different top cover then? The top of my Ultimaks sit right at, or just a tad lower than the top cover that come with the guns. If your not replacing the top cover with the texasweapons system rail, how will it sit lower?

I'm also curious as to how its more stable. The Ultimaks are secured to the barrel and have no moving parts.

Seems like that locking mechanism would also smack you in the face if your used to shooting the rifle with your head down and nose up on/along the top cover.

 

[tkopp]

Last I checked the Texas Weapons Systems rail only allowed cowitness with the Bushnell Micro T1 knockoff, because the integrated mount allowed it to sit basically at the same height as the rail itself. Wouldn't cowitness with an aimpoint or anything else.

Would probably be ideal for our Russian friend and his inexpensive optics need, though. Plus gets him a peep sight with a much longer sight radius for if the optic fails him.