I wish to have three bolt actions... an older model 70 winchester, a new stainless model 70, and a remington 700. what is the best cartridge out of all of these, is the 300 win mag staying or leaving? is the 300wsm leaving or staying? what cartridge should i get in the nicest out of these bolt guns (the new model 70)? what is the .300 h&h, somebody fill me in on some details please.
better cartridge- .308 win,.300wm or wsm, or 30/06?
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browningguy
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All are great cartridges, with the exception of the WSM which has no reason for existing and is nearly impossible to find in any gun store around here. The .300 Winnie will be around long after the last case is made for a WSM. If you can find one a perfect cartridge for an early model 70 is the .300 H&H.
jim in Anchorage
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I notice I have been grabbing my .300 weatherby[Rem 700 version] a lot in recent years. And I grew up on 30-06 and have 5 of them. Something about that super flat trajectory.
MTMilitiaman
Member
I doubt any of those cartridges are going anywhere soon. All of them have established themselves and have a solid fan base.
The .308 and the .30-06 share pretty much the same relationship the WSM has with the belted WM. Like the .308, the WSM is pretty much ballistically identically to the longer cartridge with anything until you get to the heavier for caliber bullets. Then the added capacity of the longer case, 06 and .300 Win, respectively, trumps the efficiency of the shorter case.
Which of these cartridges is most useful depends on your needs. If you're looking for a deer rifle, all will work well but the .308 will do it with less powder, recoil, and blast. The .308 will also give you a better selection of match ammo if you find yourself needing it. However, while the little case will work for bigger game, it has starts lagging behind the 06 and the magnums with heavier bullets because the longer bullets take up too much space in the case. This is also true to a lesser extent with the WSM relative to the Win Mag. I was skeptical of the WSM when it first came out and I still don't believe the belt on the original magnum is all that big of deal. That said, it isn't needed and truth be told, if I replace my 7mm Rem Mag, it will be with the WSM in the same caliber. Both the WSM and the Win Mag will take any game on the continent just about as far out as you care to gain the proficiency to shoot them. The WSM is probably at its best in a light sporter. As far as I am concerned, the only reason one would pick a Win Mag over a WSM would be if they were looking for a heavy barreled "beanfield" style rifle with the option of shooting heavy 210+ gr match bullets to 1000+ yards.
The .308 and the .30-06 share pretty much the same relationship the WSM has with the belted WM. Like the .308, the WSM is pretty much ballistically identically to the longer cartridge with anything until you get to the heavier for caliber bullets. Then the added capacity of the longer case, 06 and .300 Win, respectively, trumps the efficiency of the shorter case.
Which of these cartridges is most useful depends on your needs. If you're looking for a deer rifle, all will work well but the .308 will do it with less powder, recoil, and blast. The .308 will also give you a better selection of match ammo if you find yourself needing it. However, while the little case will work for bigger game, it has starts lagging behind the 06 and the magnums with heavier bullets because the longer bullets take up too much space in the case. This is also true to a lesser extent with the WSM relative to the Win Mag. I was skeptical of the WSM when it first came out and I still don't believe the belt on the original magnum is all that big of deal. That said, it isn't needed and truth be told, if I replace my 7mm Rem Mag, it will be with the WSM in the same caliber. Both the WSM and the Win Mag will take any game on the continent just about as far out as you care to gain the proficiency to shoot them. The WSM is probably at its best in a light sporter. As far as I am concerned, the only reason one would pick a Win Mag over a WSM would be if they were looking for a heavy barreled "beanfield" style rifle with the option of shooting heavy 210+ gr match bullets to 1000+ yards.
If all of them were to be introduced on the market new at this time the 308 and 300WSM would be the sales leaders. Since the 06 and 300WM have been around longer they will probably always be the top sellers. I started with an 06 and have owned one for over 35 years. I cannot imagine being without one. It sits almost exactly in between the 2 newer rounds in performance.
browningguy said:
Sorry, but I don't agree with that at all. I think the .300 WSM will be around for many, many years to come even if it's only in the hands of reloaders like myself. My 700 in .300 WSM weighs a mere 8lb which includes a Leupold scope, rings and bases. The fact that it'll drop an elk at 300 yards with a 180gr Barnes bullet makes it an excellent round in a light, compact and VERY accurate package. Mine is here to stay.
By the way, I have a .308 Win and .300 Win Mag too and like all three rounds for different reasons.
Runningman
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staying
staying
The 300 Win Mag and to some extent the 300 Weatherby seemed to have killed off the 300 H&H. A buddy of mine hunts with one and he has complained for years ammo is very hard to find. He said the 300 H&H is down to a single load from Federal.
No rifle manufactures have chambered a rifle in 300 H&H since the 1960s that I know of. Feel free to correct me.
I've hunted a lot with the 300 Weatherby since the 80s and have found it to be very effective on large game animals.
R.W.Dale
Member
308win is likely the most practical of the three you mention
300win mag is the most versatile but a tad overkill for most hunters
and my favorite the most classic 30-06 snuggles nicely right in the middle, and it's the cheapest to shoot as well.
300WSM is a new comer also ran and the H&H is an elderly also ran. Neither do anything 30-06 won't do.
and how is that different than what my boat paddle stocked ruger M77MkII in 30-06 does that weighs a good deal less than 8lbs. Believe it or not there in fact were light and compact rifles before Winchester suckered the shooting public with the WSM.
300win mag is the most versatile but a tad overkill for most hunters
and my favorite the most classic 30-06 snuggles nicely right in the middle, and it's the cheapest to shoot as well.
300WSM is a new comer also ran and the H&H is an elderly also ran. Neither do anything 30-06 won't do.
and how is that different than what my boat paddle stocked ruger M77MkII in 30-06 does that weighs a good deal less than 8lbs. Believe it or not there in fact were light and compact rifles before Winchester suckered the shooting public with the WSM.
Gotta agree with Krochus there, the whole WSM thing is a marketing gimmick to fill a niche that doesn't really exist(except in people's minds). The market must be real enough, since it seems the wsm and remington's SAUM lines were not enough duplicity, the Ruger RCM follows in the fine tradition of inventing cartridges that bring nothing new to the table.
jimmyraythomason
Member
I don't personally know anyone who owns a short magnum anything. Lots of .308,30.06 and .300 winnies around here though.
browningguy
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You are correct, but one of the options was an older model 70, which I assumed to mean a pre-64 (why would anyone even consider 70's, 80's or 90's vintage 70), which was indeed chambered in .300 H&H. And I still believe it would be one classy rig, even if it is a handloading proposition.
krochus and jbech123, can you even consider the possibility that there are people in the world that think long and hard, weigh the pros and cons and put a lot of effort into their decision when selecting a rifle/caliber combination? All because a particular caliber has no benefit to you, it doesn't follow that someone else that chooses that caliber is a "sucker" or "delusional" or a victim of marketing hype. The .308 and .30-06 are both excellent, well proven, well established hunting calibers for sure but the .300 WSM has better ballistics (bullet drop, wind drift, energy) than the .308 by quite a wide margin and the .30-06 by a narrower margin but it's in a short action format which the .30-06 isn't. As surprising as this may be to both of you, there are some people that want a short action caliber with the ballistics of a .300 Win Mag. If someone doesn't have either caliber and is looking for a short action rifle with .300 Win Mag performance then why not the .300 WSM? As for cost, I don't see any significant benefit in loading for the .30-06 vs. the .300 WSM. Bullets and powder in the larger calibers are the controlling factors when it comes to reloading costs.
Thousands of elk have been taken with the .308 Win but how can anyone claim that it's the equivalent of the .300 WSM? That's no different than stating that the .308 Win is equivalent to the .300 Win Mag ... which clearly isn't the case.
Here's a comparison between the four calibers mentioned. The differences in performance become even more significant with bullets over 200 grains, particularly with the .308.
Thousands of elk have been taken with the .308 Win but how can anyone claim that it's the equivalent of the .300 WSM? That's no different than stating that the .308 Win is equivalent to the .300 Win Mag ... which clearly isn't the case.
Here's a comparison between the four calibers mentioned. The differences in performance become even more significant with bullets over 200 grains, particularly with the .308.
jbech123, in a "real" scenario, wouldn't the ballistics of the .300 WSM give the average hunter an advantage over the .308 Win ... less drop, less drift and more energy to help overcome all the variables that we encounter in "real" scenarios?
I've done the same thing, and weighed things like ammo availability, cost, my experience hunting in the field, the reality that under field conditions 400 yds is my max ethical range, and whether the round will be around in the future. For those parameters, the 308 seemed best. If I needed to step up in power significantly, the 300wm would be an option. To each their own though.
jbech123 said:
jbech123, I went through the same process when I bought my .300 WSM. I've had a .308 Win and a .300 Win Mag for years and I realized that I like the ballistics of the .300 Win Mag but not the weight in terms of lugging it all over hell's creation. I liked the weight and short action of the .308 Win but wanted more "room for error" in terms of ballistics, so after a lot of thought, research etc. I decided on the .300 WSM. I admit that when I ordered mine a couple of years ago it was an academic decision since I didn't know anyone that had one and I hadn't shot one. However, now that I've put a few hundred rounds through mine, I have zero regets.
Funderb
Member
looks like 300winmag is this:
slightly longer
advantaged in every aspect over the WSM (ballistically)
Capable of more versatile loadings than WSM
a 1/2# heavier a worst.
WOOOOO
that really helps the WSM.
not.
It just really shows that the 300winmag is the ballistic improvement on the 30-06, and the WSM is the niche cartridge that does nothing special.
slightly longer
advantaged in every aspect over the WSM (ballistically)
Capable of more versatile loadings than WSM
a 1/2# heavier a worst.
WOOOOO
that really helps the WSM.
not.
It just really shows that the 300winmag is the ballistic improvement on the 30-06, and the WSM is the niche cartridge that does nothing special.
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MTMilitiaman
Member
I wouldn't call it advantaged in every respect. It has a shorter neck than it should and a belt. Both of which can be dealt with if you handload (neither of which have to be dealt with at all with the WSM), but with commercial ammo this combined with the shorter more efficient case design of the WSM means that the average WSM is probably a little more accurate than the average WM. And if you handload, it almost certainly has the potential to be loaded more accurately. Also, being more efficient means that it gets to within 50 to 100 fps of the WM with most bullets while using less powder. You may have the money to make this a non-issue. With the price of ammo and components now days, many of us do not and saving a few grains of powder to achieve the same result from a shorter, more efficient case that is less finicky and easier to load accurately makes sense. Additionally, recoil produced takes into account all the mass of the powder column and projectile, so from rifles weighing the same, the WSM will produce slightly less recoil to produce the same results. Or, if you hunt in the terrain I hunt in, you might appreciate dropping 1/2 to 3/4 of a pound off the finished rifle weight and still have the same performance and recoil of the larger heavier rifle.
Advantaged in every respect? Hardly. If you call less than 100 fps and the associated advantages in external and terminal ballistics, most of which aren't even appreciable on paper, "every respect," maybe.
But you are a fool if you can't see how someone would disagree with you on which cartridge is holding the better hand.
Keep in mind, I hunt with a 7mm Rem Mag. When the WSMs came out, I was in the same boat as you are. Then I started to look objectively at the chrono readings being published and consider how much I really did enjoy having to specially adjust my dies to work around the belt so I could headspace on the shoulder, and how much I really did enjoy using more powder than I needed to achieve essentially the same result, and how much I really did enjoy dealing with more recoil than I had to to achieve the same result, and now I am not so sure the WSMs are that bad of an idea. In fact, when I replace my current M700BDL, it will be with either a Browning A-bolt or a custom built M1999 in 7mm WSM.
So I hope you enjoy that 100 fps (or less) that your WM gives you because quite the opposite of holding all the cards, it's the only card it has.
Advantaged in every respect? Hardly. If you call less than 100 fps and the associated advantages in external and terminal ballistics, most of which aren't even appreciable on paper, "every respect," maybe.
But you are a fool if you can't see how someone would disagree with you on which cartridge is holding the better hand.
Keep in mind, I hunt with a 7mm Rem Mag. When the WSMs came out, I was in the same boat as you are. Then I started to look objectively at the chrono readings being published and consider how much I really did enjoy having to specially adjust my dies to work around the belt so I could headspace on the shoulder, and how much I really did enjoy using more powder than I needed to achieve essentially the same result, and how much I really did enjoy dealing with more recoil than I had to to achieve the same result, and now I am not so sure the WSMs are that bad of an idea. In fact, when I replace my current M700BDL, it will be with either a Browning A-bolt or a custom built M1999 in 7mm WSM.
So I hope you enjoy that 100 fps (or less) that your WM gives you because quite the opposite of holding all the cards, it's the only card it has.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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I can address two things:
1. .300 WSM ==> Leaving, .300 H&H mag ==> Leaving. The other rounds you mention ==> Staying
2. These rounds are all very similar in performance and use the same bullets. If you're just starting out and plan to obtain a "battery" of rifles for various uses, I recommend you pick just ONE .30 caliber rifle, and then get others in other sizes (with different bore diameters and different case sizes). Rimfires, .22 centerfire, 6mm centerfire, 6.5mm centerfire, .35 centerfire, etc. No need to start being redundant until you acquire a bunch of rifles.
1. .300 WSM ==> Leaving, .300 H&H mag ==> Leaving. The other rounds you mention ==> Staying
2. These rounds are all very similar in performance and use the same bullets. If you're just starting out and plan to obtain a "battery" of rifles for various uses, I recommend you pick just ONE .30 caliber rifle, and then get others in other sizes (with different bore diameters and different case sizes). Rimfires, .22 centerfire, 6mm centerfire, 6.5mm centerfire, .35 centerfire, etc. No need to start being redundant until you acquire a bunch of rifles.
Funderb said:
I shoot my .300 Win Mag more than any of my other rifles and I wouldn't give it up for all the tea in China. I don't hunt with it but I do shoot 600 yard matches with it. However, I did want to clarify a few things. The .300 WSM loaded round is at least 1/2'' shorter (C.O.L) than the .300 Win Mag and it's lighter ... if you're carrying ammunition this can become significant. For all intents and purposes it's ballistically identical to the .300 Win Mag with less recoil. It's a short action round compared to the .300 Win Mag which generally makes for a shorter, "faster" rifle with improved balance. As for "versatile loadings" ... the .300 WSM performs well with bullets ranging from 150 grains to over 200 grains. However, I generally have two loads for each rifle ... a target load and a hunting load ... so I don't really care about "versatile loadings", whatever that means. MTMilitiaman already addressed the belt and neck issue. I neck size only so I've had excellent case life for both the .300 Win Mag and .300 WSM.
I'd really like to hear what Zak has to say about the .300 WSM in terms of its suitability to the kind of shooting that he does. Given its accuracy and long-range potential, it might be a good, fast, 1200 yard match caliber.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow, when you say that the .300 WSM is "leaving", do you mean that manufacturers will stop making rifles in that caliber and consequently, that ammunition manufacturers will stop making ammunition in that caliber? Since I reload for all my rifles, my .300 WSM will be staying.
45B@cav
Member
Interesting thread. I will still stay with my .308 Rem 770. I don't see MYSELF needing anything more.
MTMilitiaman
Member
I doubt the 7mm or .300 WSM are going anywhere soon. They've been pretty well established and I think they'll be with us a while. Ammo, loading components and data, and available rifles are plentiful for both and both are useful cartridges.
I think the Remington Short Action Ultra Mags, the WSSMs, and possibly the short action Rugers might be more short-term endeavors, but the 7mm and .300 WSMs will still be available when and if you grandchildren want to hunt.
I think the Remington Short Action Ultra Mags, the WSSMs, and possibly the short action Rugers might be more short-term endeavors, but the 7mm and .300 WSMs will still be available when and if you grandchildren want to hunt.
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