300 WSM vs 30-06 (more than a speed question)

[dvdcrr]

If everybody did what they SHOULD then all we would have are 30-06 and 223 rifles around. And we' d all be driving 4cyl. Buicks. Both are great cartridges, get which one you want. 300 is a little faster, most guns hold an extra round of 30-06.

 

[HankB]

Not really. That is only the velocity and pressure they recorded using a particular powder in a specific firearm. Also note, the pressure they recorded is well below the .30-06's pressure spec of 60k psi. My LR F Class load for the .30-06 generates 2900fps with a 190gr SMK while remaining below (just) 60k psi. Of course, I don't use a Hodgdon powder and I have a 26" Obermeyer barrel.

I chose Hogdon data because it's from one (1) source and both rounds used the same length barrel. I also noticed that the .30/06 load was slightly below max . . . which if increased, might reduce the spread between cartridges just a bit.

I've had good results with my .30/06 using, originally N-205 powder; long out of production, I'm using RL22.

As for your load . . . it would be interesting if you also had also developed a 300 WSM load with a 26" Obermeyer barrel and that same 190 SMK. Then we'd have another "apples-to-apples" basis for comparing the .30/06 with the 300 WSM.

IMHO the bottom line is that while the 300 WSM DOES have a velocity advantage over the .30/06, it's not very large with good hunting-weight bullets, and, at least for me, not worth the added expense and logistics issues.

 

[MachIVshooter]

If everybody did what they SHOULD then all we would have are 30-06 and 223 rifles around. And we' d all be driving 4cyl. Buicks.

I understand what you're trying to say, but that analogy doesn't really follow, and doesn't have much application for this comparison. We're not discussing exotic cartridges or rounds with major performance advantages. If using the econobox comparison, the .30-06 to the .300 WSM is like the Ford Focus SE 2.0L SOHC vs Focus ZX 2.0L DOHC; a miniscule performance increase that is pretty much academic.

The .300 WSM didn't emerge to fill a gap; it emerged to boost sales. It splits the difference between the .30-06 and .300 win mag, which is a gap that really didn't need filler. Only thing it does differently (not necessarily an advantage) is fit in a short action. So you can decrease your rifle's overall length by 1/2" and weight by a couple ounces.

300 is a little faster, most guns hold an extra round of 30-06.

2 rounds in most cases, actually. 5 is pretty standard for .473" rim cartridges, while the same hole can't fit more than 3 of the fat beltless magnums like the WSM and RUM.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

well I like the good old 06. I do have 300wsm though. Its definitely in a slightly higher league in killing power. If you doubt it you haven't used one. It also kicks harder if that matters to you (nothing is free) As to accuracy ive got o6s that will flat outshoot my wsm but then im sure someone has a wsm that will out shoot my o6s. I don't buy into that "inherently accurate" line of bs. I guess my decision would come down to this. If I planned on shooting deer out past 350 yards or did more elk and moose hunting then deer hunting id go with the wsm. If my deer hunting rarely was past 300 yards then the 06 will flat take care of buisness. One thing to keep in mind is around here anyway 300wsm and really any of the short mags tend to sit on the shelf and are sold at bargin prices. So if you buy one new don't expect it to hold its value if you decide to dump it and couple years from now.

 

[Clint M]

I don't really get the comparisons of cartridges to car/engines.. that may be my hard head in this case. I think the wsm in a short action is the advantage as well as the main marketing so in theory it would be like comparing the 300 wsm to 308. In that line of thinking the 300 wsm out performs even the 30-06 and right in line with 300 win mag.

The drawbacks that have been listed to me just don't seem to be drawbacks such as.... cost of brass= in a hunting rifle, and the user will be reloading this just will not amount to any real cost. Capacity= in a bolt action I'm not sure how many shots you plan to administer after that first shot ? this very well could be a difference maker, but I would assume it would appeal more to semi-auto and not a bolt action rifle as the usr will have 1or 2 follow up shots that fits everything, and then some in my hunting experience.

It's a wash really outcome will be what the buyer decides. The 300 wsm is a little faster than 30-06, a little slower than 300 win mag right in between, fits in a short action but reduces capacity... but 308 thru 300 win mag will be a great hunting rig if you make the correct decisions to purchase the correct weight/specified rifle to carry as most of your time will be spent carrying the rifle or that has been my experience.

 

[HankB]

What we REALLY need is not a debate on the 300 WSM and the .30/06, but a debate on the 300 WSM vs. the 300 RSAUM vs. the 300 RCM.

 

[Macchina]

The 7mm-08 is my only (non handgun cartridge) other deer rifle... I'm just looking to round out the top end.

 

[Inebriated]

If you want the top end, .300 Win Mag would get my vote.

But realistically, there's nothing it does that .30-06 wouldn't do a few yards closer.

The Win Mag and WSM will both have more recoil than the '06, and their rifles hold less. The capacity doesn't matter to me, I've never taken more than 2 shots on a hunt, though you may want more. So your choice really just depends on your hunting style and what turns ya on.

 

[OYE]

I'm a long time 30/06 user. I mainly hunt elk. I used to get the 300 magnum bug now and then. Until I got a chance about 20 years ago in a hunting camp to compare the weight of the 30/06 I was using (6.5 lbs without the scope) to
a 300 magnum. There was no way I would ever lug that thing around. Haven't thought about a 300 mag since. About 425 yds is about our comfort level on elk
anyway. The barrel life of the 300 mag never impressed us much either.

Now the 30/06 I'm using recoils a bunch at the bench, it's never noticed in the field though. The recoil is so great with any bullets 165 gr. and higher
the bullets actually dent the front of the magazine. Any bullets with relatively soft exposed lead will get mushroomed back to the copper jacket. We did find a remedy for most of that. But that remedy may not be in the average owners
war chest. Anyway we normally now use 190 gr. Horn BT in that rifle. A heck of an elk load by the way.

When the 300 wsm came out we got the bug again until we saw the weight of the rifles. No way I want more recoil in that weight of a rifle. I haven't seen any info on barrel life of this guy either, but I suspect it may not be that great.

I like to shoot quite a bit and the extra cost seemed unreasonable to me if all else was equal, which it wasn't.

Anyway that was my thought process. OYE

 

[alientrainwreck]

If you are going to be Reloading heavy bullets say 200 &220gn bullets the 06 actually out performs the 300wsm take a look at Hodgdons manual both with 24" barrels and as for lighter bullets they are very close, I would go with the 06 and if I wanted more power I would simply have the chamber AkleyImproved which will give you ballistics of a 300H&H and you can still shoot your store bought 06 ammo from your Improved chamber, after you shoot save the fire formed Brass for Reloading. All you need to do is neck size the Brass for Reloading and hadgdons superformance works great with the AI Load, but if all you want is standard 06 performane just have some new 06 brass on hand so you can load the standard 06. It kinda like having two rifles in one both being capable of different levels of performance all while having 2 more rounds.. do you think the 300wsm will still be around in 100yrs . History has proven the 06 and I bet it will stay. The 300wsm doesn't really fill any nich so in time the caliber will be lost like so many others have. Also im not saying have it AI its just an option, room to grow if you want to and improving it doesn't mean you can't shoot reugular 06 ammo you'll just have formed brass for the improved after you do shoot the standard ammo.

 

[MistWolf]

My 308 hand loads beat factory 30-06 loads and come within 100 fps of my best 30-06 loads. I have the option of using my Kimber 308 that is almost 2 lbs lighter than my 30-06 with equal recoil, or a 308 of equal weight and 25% less recoil

The numbers do not support your claim of 25% less recoil. A 10 lbs 308 with a 26 inch barrel pushing a 168 gr bullet to 2700 fps with 41.1 gr of IMR-3031 generates 12 ft/lbs of free recoil.

The same bullet from the same weight 30-06 with the same length barrel pushed to the same velocity requires 46.1 gr of the same powder. Free recoil is 13 ft/lbs. Hardly a 25% difference. Reduce the weight of the 308 by two pounds and the free recoil is 16 ft/lbs. Definitely more recoil than that of the heavier 30-06.

Using the same 26 inch barrel and the same 168 gr bullet, 58.3 gr of R-22 gets 2900 fps from the 30-06 (listed as max load). The 300 WSM uses 71.0 gr of the same powder for 3100 fps from a 24 inch barrel (listed as max load).

All reloading data is from the Sierra Reloading manual. Use it at your own risk

 

[dvdcrr]

There is something about felt recoil, wsm's and Kimbers. When you are done quoting numbers in a book go shoot a Kimber classic WSM and you will see what I mean.
If you are handloading 200-220 gr. 30 cal bullets for performance in a 30-06, keep in mind that a Barnes 165 gr. TSX loaded to 3200 fps in a 300WSM will be at least as deadly.
And dont forget about 300 Dakota. With a 125 gr bullet traveling at 3700 fps its perfect for keeping rabbits out of the garden.

 

[Swampman]

Originall posted by dvdcrr
And dont forget about 300 Dakota. With a 125 gr bullet traveling at 3700 fps its perfect for keeping rabbits out of the garden.

I thought this thread was supposed to be about rifles, not fertilizer spreaders!

 

[Sunray]

"...holds five to the three..." The WSM case is 62 thou bigger in diameter. Like you say, it doesn't matter. Neither does 250 fps.
You want a long action or a short. Is the WSM ammo readily available where you hunt? Doesn't matter at or near home. Is brass readily available near you?
The rest of it doesn't make much difference. However, if you opt for the WSM, buy as much brass as you can when you buy the rifle. The WSM's are new and marketing types discontinue stuff regularly with no regard for their existing customers. Having a bunch of brass means you'll never have a rifle you can't get ammo for.

 

[MistWolf]

There is something about felt recoil, wsm's and Kimbers. When you are done quoting numbers in a book go shoot a Kimber classic WSM and you will see what I mean

I know all about the difference between free recoil and felt recoil. It's why swapping a steel buttplate for a Limbsaver won't reduce recoil but it will soften the blow, for example

 

[Lloyd Smale]

I just looked at hodgdons online loading data and they had loads for the 300wsm with 200 grain bullets giving velocitys as high as 2800fps with the wsm and none for the o6 were any faster then 2600fps. Id say the wsm handly wins that shooting match. Ill also add that a 06improved loaded to 60k will probably outrun factory 300H&H ammo but load the H&H to the same pressure level and its neck and neck with the 300 win and both will outrun the 06 improved. Theres no magic in any of this. More powder means more velocity about every time.

If you are going to be Reloading heavy bullets say 200 &220gn bullets the 06 actually out performs the 300wsm take a look at Hodgdons manual both with 24" barrels and as for lighter bullets they are very close

 

[Lloyd Smale]

I have a model 700 in 30-06 that has been Akley Improved, like you I reload all of my ammo and I am getting 3,400fps with a 180gn matchking and using the superformance Powder and their are others loading the same load just a little hotter.I backed off almost 100 fps for accuracy sake out at 800 meters and I can still yet shoot store bought ammo which is everywere for $20 a box and new Brass is readily available and also cheap. In my opinion I don't believe the 300wsm can out shoot the improved 06. The 30-06 has been around a long time for a reason and with these new powders the handloader has the upperhand and I only expect it to stay around performance has came so far espeacilly when you have it AI. Its a new monster for us reloaders and every mom&pops store that sells ammo will likely have the 30-06 as to the 300wsm for half the price. And you'll have something that most dont.

My God your loading that poor gun up to levels it takes my 300 ultra to get to. Might want to consider a brail keyboard. It might come in handy real soon

 

[Art Eatman]

"Might want to consider a brail keyboard."

Winner!

When the .300WSM first came out, it looked to me to be a handloader's cartridge. 90% of .300WinMag velocity with 80% as much powder.

Comparing it to the '06, though, said to me that if I didn't have a .30, go with the WSM--but the extra velocity wasn't enough to move me away from the '06.

 

[X-Rap]

Yep, even fanboys are guilty of trying to load their favorite cartridge over what it should be while trying to make it what they chastise others for wanting.
I don't know many handloaders who don't comment on how they can get their _______
up to or near _______ without comment on how uploading that cartridge puts it close to the next Magnum.

 

[Casefull]

It is hard to get past the nostalgic 06 fan boys on this forum. You are getting bad info OP.
I shoot, handload, and hunt with the 300wm and 300wsm. With superformance powder and 180 bullets the wsm chronos 3200 fps with no pressure problems. Load is a g below maximum. My 300wm can only do 3100 with same bullet and shows beginnings of pressure problems. I am amazed at what the 300wsm does with the powder charge it has. Comparing it to the 06 ballistically is silly. The 06 is much closer to the 308. Let the screaming at me begin. ha ha

 

[Art Eatman]

Casefull, I see no disagreement on my part. I guess that if I have any real opinion in all this, it's that for deer hunting out to, say, 500 yards, most any 150-grain bullet somewhere in the range of 2,800 to 3,000 ft/sec is plenty good.

Leaving out the "bean field folks", since most deer are killed somewhere inside of 200 yards, even the '06 is more than is needed.

But, folks oughta use whatever they're happy with.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

You're buying a rifle you can pass on to your grandkids. Fifty years from now, you'll still be able to get .30-06, but I'm not so sure about .300 WSM.

 

[cmb3366]

As the owner of rifles chambered for 308, 30-06, and 300wsm I can say that the short mag definitely has its place. Someone earlier called the short mag a handloader special and I agree with that. The design of the brass was tailor-made for reloading. A thick web, little body taper and steep shoulder angle provide brass that lasts many, many firings, even pushing the limits of the cartridge. I bought 100 pieces of Norma brass when I bought my M70 in 2004 and I am still using the same brass today.

The short mag in my experience is very easy to load for much like the 308. Nearly every recipe I have tried shows a definite node near the top end and when you find the node the accuracy is nearly unbelievable for a hunting rifle. In terms of velocity I get 3300FPS with my 150gr load, and 3100 with my 165gr load, both using IMR 4831. I have not shot game with the 165 but the 150gr load is a hammer on whitetails unlike any other rifle I have used.

As far as availability, the shortmag is not going anywhere. With the younger generation it is a popular round, and hell, you can still find ammo for outright flops like the 225 Win and 6mm Remington 50 some years later. Every major rifle manufacturer has made WSM rifles, and from what I have seen all of them except Ruger have current models so chambered. The WSM has made it 14 years and it's still selling rifles folks.

 

[BudgetBucks1]

You mentioned this rifle is for elk hunting out west. Both calibers will do fine but personally I could not get past only having three rounds in the rifle when I am hunting. I know that in most situations three rounds is plenty but I much prefer having 5. I guess that is the prepper in me coming out. In 2004 I was treed by a large, aggressive black bear. He stayed at the bottom of the tree and never attempted to climb it but would not leave. I only had a muzzleloader but I remember wishing that I had a 30 round clip. My friends came looking for me and finally ran him off about one hour after dark. I have had deer hunts where I used three rounds in five minutes during the rut. I never needed five but it can't hurt to have the extra two rounds.

 

[AKMtnRunner]

Either will work for Elk. The difference is which one works for you, meaning which one fits your personality. Do you drive a base model car/truck or do you like to impress your buddies with your toys?