Better metering "blended" Promo for more accurate loads

[LiveLife]

During the "Great Component Shortage", I initially tested Promo as a viable powder choice when more popular powders were not available.

While there was no published load data from Alliant for pistol loads with Promo, since Alliant stated Promo was same "burn rate" as Red Dot and to use Promo by weight (and not by volume), many reloaders used Red Dot load data for Promo with good results - http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/promo.aspx

As you can see from above comparison pictures ("Old Promo" from two different containers), Promo "initially" looked like crinkly Red Dot with round flakes added and it metered like Red Dot with .2-.3+ gr variance from Pro Auto Disk. Newer "blended" Promo looks like there's more round granules (and less crinkly Red Dot flakes) with even larger round granules added and now meters with less than .2 gr variance.

After several 8 lb containers of Promo later (can you say I like Promo? ) using it as primary pistol and carbine range practice/plinking powder, I have noticed newer containers of Promo seemed to meter better with less than .2 gr variance (about 60% of drops within .1 gr).

So when I did "C-H 502 Micrometer Powder Measure 10 Drops" thread, I was pleasantly surprised with .12 gr variance I got with Promo (which BTW was same as W231/HP-38) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/c-h-502-micrometer-powder-measure-10-drops.834894/

Here are 10 drops of Promo with .12 gr variance from C-H 502:

1. 4.20 gr
2. 4.16 gr
3. 4.14 gr
4. 4.20 gr
5. 4.08 gr
6. 4.12 gr
7. 4.14 gr
8. 4.14 gr
9. 4.12 gr
10. 4.08 gr

And in comparison to Red Dot, Promo is less dense.

Here are 10 drops of Red Dot with .22 gr variance using same volumetric setting:

1. 4.70 gr
2. 4.70 gr
3. 4.56 gr
4. 4.58 gr
5. 4.50 gr
6. 4.52 gr
7. 4.70 gr
8. 4.58 gr
9. 4.72 gr
10. 4.60 gr

 

[LiveLife]

And the new "blended" Promo shoots pretty good too.

Here are 25 yard 10 shot groups with 17" Just Right carbine using RMR 115 gr FMJ and 4.1-4.2 gr/4.4-4.5 gr of Promo. 4.4-4.5 gr Promo feels slightly less than Winchester white box with M&P Shield 9mm and my Glocks. 4.1-4.2 gr is a mild load that is a joy to shoot in the Shield.

Here are W231/HP-38 and Vectan Ba9.5 (Close to Red Dot burn rate) groups for comparison

And 50 yard 10 shot group with RMR 100 gr HM RN with 4.5-4.7 gr Promo (essentially 100% case fill load) produced sub 2" group good enough for "minute of soda can"

While 3" group at 100 yards may not impress many rifle shooters, it is pretty good for a short stubby 100 gr plated pistol bullet good enough for "minute of 2 litre bottle"

 

[gsbuickman]

It sounds as though promo is just another Green Dot . I picked up a few pounds of green dot Powder a couple weeks ago and I've been doing a lot of research and a ton of digging and in a nutshell Alliant apparently decided not to support they're shotgun powders for pistol cartridges but it's quite popular for pistol cartridges like 9mm, 38 / 357, 40 s&W & 45acp as well as intermediate type rifle cartridges like the 7.62x39 & 30-30. It seems that Green Dot powder is actually slow batches of Red Dot powder & if you can't find load data for Green Dot for a given cartridge but you do find red dot data for it, you can safely substitute green dot with the Red Dot load data. I've poured through a ton of threads on a lot of different gunboards but I found the best load data and information for Green Dot powder on the Cast Boolits forum, which coincidentally is based right here out of Eastern Idaho ...

 

[gsbuickman]

I borrowed this from the cast boolits board, you may find this interesting :

Here is some data I have gleened from a web crawl recently. None of this is developed by me and I claim no responsiblilty for it's performance, but I use this a reference. Picked up 4# of GreenDot recently.......about the only thing available right now!

It is mentioned many times in the load data in the #4 Lyman Cast book. If you do not have one, I would recommed buying it.

From what I have read on the web from a bunch of gun/reload sites, it is a very good pistol powder and has been used as such for years.

Check out the standard burn rates for "general comparison" of powders:

http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

................WEB DATA................

Green Dot is a little faster than Unique, so use less.

Green Dot is very similar to 231.

.45 ACP 230 gr LRN + 5.0 gr Green Dot = 792 fps

.45 ACP 200 gr SWC + 5.5 gr Green Dot = 880 fps

9mm 115 gr JHP + 4.6 gr Green Dot = 1152 fps

.40SW 180g Jacketed Bullet + GREEN DOT 4.9-5.3g

.45 LC 4.7 grains with a 115 grain Montana Gold FMJ bullet.

.38 SPL 125 gr jacketed bullet with 4.0 gr of Green Dot

.38 SPL 148 gr Wad Cutter with 2.7 gr of Green Dot

.38 SPL 4.5 Green Dot with a 158 LSWC

And for those doing 9mm......and for comparison of powders:

9mm Luger

115 gr lead bullet
Red Dot start 3.7 grs max 4.2 grs
Bullseye start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Green Dot start 4.2 grs max 4.7 grs
Unique start 4.5 max 5 grs
Power Pistol start 5 grs max 5.5 grs

115 gr jacketed bullet
Red Dot start 3.8 grs max 4.3 grs
Bullseye start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Green Dot start 4.2 grs max 4.7 grs
Unique start 4.5 grs max 5.5 grs
Power Pistol start 5.9 grs max 6.3 grs

124/125 gr lead
Red Dot start 3.6 grs max 4.1 grs
Bullseye start 3.8 grs max 4.3 grs
Green Dot start 3.9 grs max 4.4 grs
Unique start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Power Pistol start 4.8 grs max 5.3 grs

124/125 gr jacketed
Red Dot start 3.7 grs max 4.2 grs
Bullseye start 3.9 grs max 4.3 grs
Green Dot start 4.1 grs max 4.5 grs
Unique start 4.5 grs max 5 grs
Power Pistol start 5 grs max 5.5 grs

147 gr lead
Bullseye start 2.8 grs max 3.3 grs
Green Dot start 3 grs max 3.4 grs
Unique start 3.2 grs max 3.6 grs
Power Pistol start 4 grs max 4.5 grs

147 gr jacketed
Unique start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Power Pistol start 4.5 grs max 5 grs

Good shooting!

 

[FROGO207]

If memory serves me well Promo was a blended product (commercial non canister propellant blended to RD burn rate) to begin with and the consistency and granular makeup was different with each batch, that is why you need to go only by weight of the charge not the volume. I also have shot many LBS of it as well and had no problems using it that way. I think of it as "often refomulated" promo FWIW.

 

[LiveLife]

Promo was a blended product ... why you need to go only by weight of the charge not the volume.

I think of it as "often refomulated" promo.

Good point.

I noticed the change in flake size/consistency some time back but was curious about better metering more recently. (Maybe Paul from Alliant listened to my nagging to make Promo meter better. )

I started this thread because "new" Promo now meters with less than .2 gr variance in my Pro Auto Disk when it was metering with .2-.3+gr variance. After C-H 502 powder measure metered "new" Promo with just over .1 gr variance (.12 gr actual, same as W231/HP-38), I got curious. Perhaps less crinkly flakes and more round flakes is making Promo flow better and improved metering.

 

[FROGO207]

I am working on my last 8# container of the three that I purchased pre Obama when I had some cash to do it. Soon I will be needing another 8 pounder and am looking forward to a better metering product. On the other hand I may be getting some Sport Pistol as I mentioned in your other thread as a lot of my Promo was used making 9mm loads before. We will see when I try the SP out.

 

[Rod47]

My understanding from Alliant Rep years past while attending ATA Grand American was Promo was developed from lots of American Select that did not meet qc standards.

 

[George P]

It sounds as though promo is just another Green Dot . I picked up a few pounds of green dot Powder a couple weeks ago and I've been doing a lot of research and a ton of digging and in a nutshell Alliant apparently decided not to support they're shotgun powders for pistol cartridges but it's quite popular for pistol cartridges like 9mm, 38 / 357, 40 s&W & 45acp as well as intermediate type rifle cartridges like the 7.62x39 & 30-30. It seems that Green Dot powder is actually slow batches of Red Dot powder & if you can't find load data for Green Dot for a given cartridge but you do find red dot data for it, you can safely substitute green dot with the Red Dot load data. I've poured through a ton of threads on a lot of different gunboards but I found the best load data and information for Green Dot powder on the Cast Boolits forum, which coincidentally is based right here out of Eastern Idaho ...

Not another Green Dot; as mentioned, you use Red Dot data; it typically burns a little dirtier, especially in shotgun shells. Green Dot works great in other cartridges where Red Dot/Promo does not.

 

[Salmoneye]

"Not another Green Dot; as mentioned, you use Red Dot data; it typically burns a little dirtier, especially in shotgun shells. Green Dot works great in other cartridges where Red Dot/Promo does not."

Pre Alliant/Speer merger, the Alliant paper hand-out manual had scads of data across the board in metallic cartridges for Red Dot (and their other powders)...

The only data that Alliant has back-pedaled on is the use of Blue Dot in .357 with light bullets, and all .41 Mag loads using Blue Dot...

Blue Dot Warning:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/getting_started/safety/safety_notices.aspx

2004 Alliant Load Manual (PDF download from here at THR):

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=182147&d=1364769070

In addition to the Alliant Manual data, Ed Harris published his findings using Red Dot for reduced loads in rifle cartridges:

http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/The Load.htm

I personally use Red Dot in:

.38 S&W
9mm
.38 SPCL
.357 Mag
.44 SPCL
.44 Mag
.30-30
.35 Remington
.30-06

 

[George P]

I also used Red Dot in some of those same cartridges......until I discovered Clays, Universal and other powders better suited...but for someone to say use Green Dot the same as Red Dot is incorrect.

 

[Average Joe]

Been using Red Dot for years for shotgun , switched over to Promo and tried it in a few handgun loads, it works .

 

[Salmoneye]

I also used Red Dot in some of those same cartridges......until I discovered Clays, Universal and other powders better suited...but for someone to say use Green Dot the same as Red Dot is incorrect.

"Better suited"?

Clays is right below Red Dot/Promo in burn rate, and Universal is next in line after Unique (according to Hodgdon's chart))...

Seems to me Hodgdon is simply playing catch-up to these time tested venerable powders...

 

[brewer12345]

Call me paranoid, but I want to have jugs of very versatile powder. Unique, for example. Aside from 20 gauge loads it probably isn't optimal for much, but it can produce a load for almost anything and there is lots of data. Elections happen too often for me to want too many specialty powders, no matter how good they are.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

^^^
I agree 100%. I have jugs of Promo, Universal, HS6, 2400, 4198, 4895.

Even a few pounds of Unique and Blue Dot.

All versatile powders.

 

[Average Joe]

Promo for shotshells, and all handgun loads,( .380,9mm,.38spl) , and Win 748 for all my rifle loads ( .223 & .308)..... Down to just two powders.

 

[George P]

"Better suited"?

Clays is right below Red Dot/Promo in burn rate, and Universal is next in line after Unique (according to Hodgdon's chart))...

Seems to me Hodgdon is simply playing catch-up to these time tested venerable powders...

Red Dot is a decent powder for a wide variety of handgun, shotgun and even a few rifle down-loaded rounds. But like a pump shotgun, a Jack-of-all-trades, is a master of none. Red Dot works well for basic 12 gauge trap/skeet/sporting loads, and the mid-range pistol cartridges in the 38/9mm/45 range

 

[Alliant Reloading]

If memory serves me well Promo was a blended product (commercial non canister propellant blended to RD burn rate) to begin with and the consistency and granular makeup was different with each batch, that is why you need to go only by weight of the charge not the volume. I also have shot many LBS of it as well and had no problems using it that way. I think of it as "often refomulated" promo FWIW.

Frogo207 has nailed it. Promo(TM) has not been reformulated, but rather each lot will be a little different "design".
No, Promo is not rejected American Select(R). I'm not saying someone didn't tell you that Rod47, but that marketing type was not in complete command of the technology.
Thank you for using our American made shotshell and pistol powders.
Paul

 

[LiveLife]

Promo was a blended product (commercial non canister propellant blended to RD burn rate)

Frogo207 has nailed it. Promo(TM) has not been reformulated, but rather each lot will be a little different "design".

Thank you Paul for the clarification. I will ask Walkalong to change the thread title from "Reformulated" to "Blended" and will modify my OP.

Good news for me is new lots of "blended" Promo have metered better than before (which was my only complaint about Promo) that seems to be producing more accurate loads as verified by smaller shot groups, particularly for my 50/100 yard carbine loads. Now when new reloaders ask about powders to use, I can also recommend Promo along with more popular powders like Sport Pistol (which replaced W231/HP-38 as my reference pistol powder) and BE-86 (which replaced WSF).

Keep blending away Promo and I will keep buying it.