Big Bore Hardcast Lead vs. FMJ-FP

[PA Revolver Guy]

Howdy folks,

I was hoping to solicit thoughts/opinions on this topic as it relates to big bores (41 mag thru 45 colt) as I do not have any experience with FMJ-FP bullets used for hunting and or woods carry in a sidearm. I have only carried or shot hardcast bullets to date mostly in 44 special, 45acp, 44 magnum and 45 colt.

A few of the boutique ammo websites (whose ammo is outstanding and proprietors are well respected) sell loaded hardcast type bullets AND FMJ-FP bullets where the description of such rounds claim to penetrate deep by virtue of their flat nose design crushing tissue. Seemingly getting to the same or similar place with differing designs. To that end, I have heard this being the case with SWC/LFN/WLN hardcast designs for many years and have read books on the subject as well. I further understand the size of the meplat in the case of hardcast contributing to the wounding effects of a hardcast bullet. Perhaps a larger wound size out of proportion to the caliber. That said, I have not heard much, if anything, on the effects of FMJ-FP other than what I've read in the description of the ammo being sold. I am curious if FMJ-FP bullets can be used with the same success as hardcast bullet designs? Are there any meaningful advantages in one design over the other? Further, I do not see FMJ-FP ammo in the real heavy loads (325 gains at 1,350fps) nor do I see them in calibers like 454 casull, 480 ruger, 460 & 500 S&W. Does a much higher velocity deform FMJ-FP on impact more so than a 20-24 brinell hardcast? Can anyone with more experience than I shed some light?

 

[MaxP]

I was a big proponent of hardcast bullets for all manner of game (and still use them on a limited basis) until we started testing them under more extreme conditions. We established an annual gathering in Texas called the "Bovine Bash" to test revolver calibers/loads/bullets on live bovine flesh. In a nutshell, the failure rate of hardcast bullets was alarmingly high from a variety of differing sources as well as home cast bullets. They are velocity limited, and work well if held to the lower speeds, but tend to deform when striking heavy support bone. When the nose profile gets compromised, the ability to produce damage, track straight and go deep are all compromised. Monolithic or hybrids (like the Kodiak Punch bullet) don't suffer these inadequacies and do all the flat-nosed cast bullets do without distorting and can thereby be driven much harder with even greater damage and depth of penetration produced. For uncompromising reliability, I like monolithic solids like those produced by LeHigh and CEB. The Punch is a good one as well. Of these three mentioned, the LeHighs have the largest meplats.

Now, whether you need all of that terminal goodness is another question for a different discussion.

 

[CraigC]

The problem with FMJ's is the soft, pure lead core and thin jacket. Because of this, they are not the penetrators people seem to think. They deform and sometimes even come apart. A hardcast bullet of proper design is not only harder but also much tougher.

 

[MaxP]

The only true flat-nosed FMJ I know of right now is the Barnes Buster and it is able to withstand high impact velocities (it was made for both revolver and rifle velocities). The CorBon Penetrator of yore was decent and tough, but I know of some issue with straight-line tracking possibly due to the huge meplat. Don't really know of any other true "FMJs" - for lack of a better descriptive.

 

[PA Revolver Guy]

MaxP - many thanks for your reply. The extreme conditions you speak of are very interesting to me. I can only imagine the excitement of the bovine bash. I know you have made reference to it in your Handgun Hunting book. However, to your last point, monolithic solids, punch bullets and such are probably not a requirement for the game I hunt up here in PA. Perhaps, in time, as I gain much more experience in the field hunting with sixguns. Now is as good a time as any to go back and re-read Handgun Hunting and Big Bore Revolvers. Lots must have gone over my head during the first go round.

CraigC - I could see how velocity could affect the nose profile of a FMJ-FP given the definition of the bullets construction. This makes sense to me vs hardcast lead. It further makes sense, that in extreme circumstances such as the ones MaxP has alluded to in his post, that monolithic bullets or punch have an advantage over hardcast for extreme penetration needs where deformation of the meplat is not acceptable. I guess that is a worthwhile trade off for a lighter weight bullet to ensure the same or similar case capacity as hardcast.

Interestingly, Tim Sundles over at Buffalo Bore has someehat recently added monolithic bullets to his line up in the major heavy hitter calibers. I suspect for reasons MaxP has already mentioned. All is starting to make sense to me.

 

[MaxP]

Interestingly, Tim Sundles over at Buffalo Bore has someehat recently added monolithic bullets to his line up in the major heavy hitter calibers. I suspect for reasons MaxP has already mentioned. All is starting to make sense to me.

Again, the only "FMJ" with a flat-nose I am aware of is the Barnes Buster and it is more than capable of handling impact and high-velocity.

I helped develop the DG line of ammo with Tim Sundles. There is a real need for uncompromising ammo for extreme conditions IMHO.

 

[CraigC]

Some says FMJ I'm going to assume they mean something like generic hardball or a silhouette bullet, not the Barnes Buster.

 

[MaxP]

He specified FMJ - FP....

 

[CraigC]

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/handgun/10mm-.400-180-gr-fmj-fp#!/

 

[.455_Hunter]

I was a big proponent of hardcast bullets for all manner of game (and still use them on a limited basis) until we started testing them under more extreme conditions. We established an annual gathering in Texas called the "Bovine Bash" to test revolver calibers/loads/bullets on live bovine flesh. In a nutshell, the failure rate of hardcast bullets was alarmingly high from a variety of differing sources as well as home cast bullets. They are velocity limited, and work well if held to the lower speeds, but tend to deform when striking heavy support bone. When the nose profile gets compromised, the ability to produce damage, track straight and go deep are all compromised. Monolithic or hybrids (like the Kodiak Punch bullet) don't suffer these inadequacies and do all the flat-nosed cast bullets do without distorting and can thereby be driven much harder with even greater damage and depth of penetration produced. For uncompromising reliability, I like monolithic solids like those produced by LeHigh and CEB. The Punch is a good one as well. Of these three mentioned, the LeHighs have the largest meplats.

Now, whether you need all of that terminal goodness is another question for a different discussion.

Thanks MaxP!

What velocity (or energy?) level did you see the hardcasts begin to show performance failures?

 

[MaxP]

We saw failure at a broad spectrum of velocities. I would certainly limit muzzle velocity to 1,400 or thereabouts. But not all hardcast are the same and some fracture. The toughest hardcast bullets I have seen by far are those Garrett loads. They’re ultra hard but not brittle. Keep in mind, that in some cases despite killing said animals, the bullets distorted significantly and/or shed a significant amount of weight. If I had an expensive trophy fee on the line, I would opt for something tougher than a cast bullet.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Thanks!

I would love to see the in-depth bovine analysis in another book of yours. I have the first two, and they very frequently make my evening or late evening reading list, causing some interesting dreams, like a running a .45 Colt wheelgun in Africa...

 

[Tradmark]

Fyi, at the first bovine bash i Went to, i had a failure with a 440 hc out of a 500sw at a muzzle velocity of 1380 fps. Impact was an estimated 1200 fps at 90 yards. Video was shot, perfect nearly broadside shot into onside shoulder. Watusi ran off and we gave chase. About and a half later we were able to catch up to them and figure out which was the wounded bovine. I traded the 500 with a hardcast for a 454 with a 250 barnes xpb. Watusi was summarily knocked into the dirt with the next shot. On post mortem the 500 hardcast had deformed or come apart and basically made a 90 degree turn and exited the guts on the offside. Utter fail, if itd been a Cape buff itd be gone or if it was charging we wouldnt have had it so good. Compare that to my daughters much larger waterbuff shot with the prototype of the buffalo bore dangerous game 480 load. That one can be watched on the big iron tv show. Or compare it to maxp’s cape buff with the 500jrh with a 400gr (not hardcast) monometal and
See one of the single most definitive quick cape buff kills with any type of weapon.

also, on another note, on subsequent testing on dead waterbuff’s it has been shown that a 454 at a sedate 1500 fps will out penetrate much larger hardcasts and run it at the 300 gr /1650fps and it will out penetrate any hardcast of any size and weight.

 

[sparkyv]

Wow, you guys have very interesting experiences of which most of us can only dream!

 

[Goosey]

A few of the boutique ammo websites (whose ammo is outstanding and proprietors are well respected) sell loaded hardcast type bullets AND FMJ-FP bullets where the description of such rounds claim to penetrate deep by virtue of their flat nose design crushing tissue.

Same applies to revolvers...

Does the 540-grain Hammerhead Ammo actually out-penetrate the 458 Winchester Magnum and 500 Nitro Express when using solids?
Yes, as was demonstrated for all to see at a recent John Linebaugh seminar. The penetration results, which parallel ours, demonstrated that the 458 Winchester Magnum produces 47-inches of penetration in wet newspaper with 500-grain roundnose solids and that the 500 Nitro Express produces 48-inches of penetration in wet newspaper with 570-grain roundnose solids. By comparison, our 540-grainer with its super blunt front end produces an impressive 55-inches of penetration in the same material. Nearly 20% deeper penetration than the 458 or 500 Nitro Express with roundnose solids!

But is "super hardcast" really the end-all bullet?

The 540 grain Garret made bullet and the 525 Piledriver in .458 each shed over half their weight and changed profiles to short (half or less original length) and round noses pieces of their original form. My Zambia Game Officer actually took all my 540 Garret ammo from me after he felt it performed poorly on a buffalo and then an elephant and he threw them in the river and said "you wont do that again".

Garret 540 gr (what remains of it) from buffalo pelvic into 20" spine, and 300 gr Nosler partition from Leopard

Top is Punch, bottom left is what's left of Garret 540gr and center bottom is a Solid Kodiak

As I mentioned, I was a little unnerved by the deformation of the big slug that I pulled out of the Common Reedbuck after hitting hip bone. One of the reasons I shot the Reedbuck in the first place was because by that time I was beginning to question myself in regard to shot placement and bullet effectiveness on the Buffalo. Taking a well aimed shot at the small Reedbuck, it hit precisely where I wanted it, and of the three quick followup shots at the spinning animal, one connected. This reassured me as to my shot placement, as the Reedbuck was a much smaller target, further away, lower light, and offhand instead of kneeling. But the condition of the round after striking bone was another story...

Fresh sign of a very big Cape Buffalo. Still-hunted across a saddle and down a steep draw. Kept seeing fresh sign. Sent Lukas, our tracker and driver, for the bakkie. As he was walking back up the hill, the big bull snorted and charged toward him. He called on the radio and we raced up the hill to within 50 yards of the old bull. He made a fake charge toward me and I ran toward him as well. I knelt and shot him with my Marlin 45-70 low in the chest as he was quartering toward me from uphill. I quickly followed up with a second shot as he bolted, landing another 540 grain Garret Hammerhead in his left shoulder.

We tracked the buffalo down to the edge of the thick marsh. The reeds were thick and 15 feet tall. The blood trail entered the reeds, and so did we. The bull was moving slowly and we were close on his heels. We lost the trail a couple of times, he could be anywhere – intense! Crashes close by in the reeds caused us to have guns at the ready. We heard the bull in the reeds running out on the other side of the marsh. We followed him out and stayed on his wet trail until we lost the light at the end of the day.

My first 2 shots using the 540 grain Hammerhead solids had killed him. ...

That afternoon, we return with the skinners to supervise the dissection of the massive old bull. I want to see those bullets, as well as Andre’s 500 grain Hornady that he fired into the animal after we found him dead. One of my solids disintegrated on the right shoulder knob, which was shattered. The other was well intact after being withdrawn from the mid-chest region.

The complete disintegration of the hardcast bullet on the shoulder knob, though it completely decimated the shoulder, was a huge disappointment. The round that found its way to the boiler-room, however, was a different story, and was what ultimately killed the animal.

In this regard, you and IvW and Hank have a very valid point, and I don't think you will find me hunting big boned dangerous game with this rifle ever again.

 

[MaxP]

Same applies to revolvers...



But is "super hardcast" really the end-all bullet?

From where are you quoting this?

Don’t get me started on those Linebaugh Seminar results....