Sav .250
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Money in hand........done deal. See ya.
Bill of sale/contract when selling guns?
- Thread starter grampajack
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herrwalther
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Depends on the other party. I have shown my CCW or my driver's license when buying a gun. Have never signed a bill of sale for a firearm I have bought.
The only part of buying/selling I am religious about is my end. I keep a spreadsheet of every firearm I have bought/sold/traded. Details I record are date bought or sold, how much, and sometimes buyer name. Often times I just have an email address. This is not to cover any liability on my end. It is more for memory. I can turn around 6 months from now and ask myself "Didn't I have a Glock?" Yup, sold it for X amount on this date.
The only part of buying/selling I am religious about is my end. I keep a spreadsheet of every firearm I have bought/sold/traded. Details I record are date bought or sold, how much, and sometimes buyer name. Often times I just have an email address. This is not to cover any liability on my end. It is more for memory. I can turn around 6 months from now and ask myself "Didn't I have a Glock?" Yup, sold it for X amount on this date.
mikestone967
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Never. Cash for gun and walk away. At least a dozen times since can't remember!Just ask, "are you a Florida resident and legal?"
That is it.
'Nuff said!
Ranger Roberts
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I don't sell guns but if I did, I wouldn't require a bill of sale unless the law required it. I also wouldn't sign one unless the law required it.
For the 3 guns I have sold face to face I have provided a Bill of Sale. Description of gun, Name and address of both parties verified by ID, purchase price, and a generic sold as is release of liability.
Most of the guns I've sold were transactions done online and the gun was shipped to a FFL.
Today Oregon requires a background check on most sales so I leave it to the FFL to keep up with the paperwork.
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Most of the guns I've sold were transactions done online and the gun was shipped to a FFL.
Today Oregon requires a background check on most sales so I leave it to the FFL to keep up with the paperwork.
Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
I've gone both ways, depending on circumstance, both selling and buying. Generally comfortable with seeing DL to prove state of residence and asking if there is anything that would prohibit them from owning a gun. No, I don't know if they are telling the truth, but I did my part to stay legal.
Have done a simple bill of sale when situation warranted.
Have done a simple bill of sale when situation warranted.
medalguy
Member
I keep a contemporaneous record of all my gun purchases and sales. If I sell a gun then I record it by date. Nothing more. I've bought guns on nothing more than a handshake and I prefer it that way. The law says if I have no reason to suspect the buyer is a prohibited person, then the sale is legal. I do spend a few minutes talking guns with any prospective buyer, and I think I can "read" people fairly well. I've only sold a small number but I've felt good about every sale. If I hadn't then I would not have sold the gun.
henschman
Member
Option C. No bill of sale, contract, ID, or questions about whether the buyer is prohibited (unless I have reason to believe that they are) -- just free men engaged in voluntary exchange. If anyone asks for paperwork or gov't ID, I walk unless it is a ridiculously good deal.
Trunk Monkey
member
I think this is one of those topics that people just split into two camps on and neither side is going to convince the other to change.
I get a bill of sale to (hopefully) protect me from any litigation and that’s the only reason I get one. I don’t want you to take the gun I sold you, abuse it, have it malfunction or blow up on you and have you come back and try to sue me over it.
I don’t think showing a cop a bill of sale that I could have printed out yesterday is going to do me any good if the police show up asking about a gun I sold. I suppose it might help me if the police had reason to check the serial number of a gun I bought and it came up hot but even then I’m not sure. In either case I’m not participating in any police investigation of any crime with out competent legal counsel.
IMO if you are that paranoid (Yup, I went there) over selling a gun to a stranger then you should either sell it on consignment at your LGS or have an FFL do an official transfer for you.
I get a bill of sale to (hopefully) protect me from any litigation and that’s the only reason I get one. I don’t want you to take the gun I sold you, abuse it, have it malfunction or blow up on you and have you come back and try to sue me over it.
I don’t think showing a cop a bill of sale that I could have printed out yesterday is going to do me any good if the police show up asking about a gun I sold. I suppose it might help me if the police had reason to check the serial number of a gun I bought and it came up hot but even then I’m not sure. In either case I’m not participating in any police investigation of any crime with out competent legal counsel.
IMO if you are that paranoid (Yup, I went there) over selling a gun to a stranger then you should either sell it on consignment at your LGS or have an FFL do an official transfer for you.
In the course of my career in practicing law I have seen a variety of unanticipated complications arise in all sorts of business transactions. It is often hard to predict what can go wrong, and sometimes problems arise that one could not have expected.
It's generally been the case that the better the transaction has been documented, the easier it will be to favorably work out any problem that might arise.
Of course if I'm buying or selling something like a cheap folding chair for $5.00, I'm not going to worry. But if I'm dealing with an item of some value which it often a target of thieves and/or which might cause injury or be misused, I'm going to want to more thoroughly document the deal.
And if I'm dealing with something that is rare, desirable, and quite valuable -- art worth thousands of dollars, a fine watch, jewelry, etc. -- I'm going to be very thorough about documentation, including evidence of provenance and authenticity.
That's how I conduct business, and it's worked well for me and for my clients.
It's generally been the case that the better the transaction has been documented, the easier it will be to favorably work out any problem that might arise.
Of course if I'm buying or selling something like a cheap folding chair for $5.00, I'm not going to worry. But if I'm dealing with an item of some value which it often a target of thieves and/or which might cause injury or be misused, I'm going to want to more thoroughly document the deal.
And if I'm dealing with something that is rare, desirable, and quite valuable -- art worth thousands of dollars, a fine watch, jewelry, etc. -- I'm going to be very thorough about documentation, including evidence of provenance and authenticity.
That's how I conduct business, and it's worked well for me and for my clients.
Elkins45
Member
Frank,
Is there possibly a distinction between guarding against civil vs criminal penalties in the case of selling a gun? I know my main reason for wanting to know the name of the person I sell a 4473 gun to is in case it ends up beside a dead guy I can tell the investigating officer where the gun went once it left my hands.
Is there also some sort of protection for crazy civil penalties? As in "He acted with depraved indifference when he sold a gun to a complete stranger without even bothering to find out he was actually from out of state. The guy shot me and now I'm suing the seller in civil court." I ask because I live in KY but am close enough to OH that people will answer Armslist ads and try to talk me into selling to them even though they live across the river after I ask if they will show me a KY ID.
I know the law says "knowingly" but could it be turned around on you to assert you were deliberately "unknowing" because you didn't even try to find out?
Is there possibly a distinction between guarding against civil vs criminal penalties in the case of selling a gun? I know my main reason for wanting to know the name of the person I sell a 4473 gun to is in case it ends up beside a dead guy I can tell the investigating officer where the gun went once it left my hands.
Is there also some sort of protection for crazy civil penalties? As in "He acted with depraved indifference when he sold a gun to a complete stranger without even bothering to find out he was actually from out of state. The guy shot me and now I'm suing the seller in civil court." I ask because I live in KY but am close enough to OH that people will answer Armslist ads and try to talk me into selling to them even though they live across the river after I ask if they will show me a KY ID.
I know the law says "knowingly" but could it be turned around on you to assert you were deliberately "unknowing" because you didn't even try to find out?
justice06rr
Member
No law and no registration required in my state. It is a good practice to use a BOS, but I don't. If a seller requires it then I don't have a problem.
If you buy a gun privately (which I do at least half the time), it could have had 2 or more owners before. How would they track that accurately??? The item could've passed into the hands of multiple owners with no sure way of tracking.
If you buy a gun privately (which I do at least half the time), it could have had 2 or more owners before. How would they track that accurately??? The item could've passed into the hands of multiple owners with no sure way of tracking.
X-Rap
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If the law doesn't require it I don't. Unfortunately CO voters decided for us. I haven't bought or sold in years and may not for many more.
I can only speculate but I'd be surprised if those on either side of this didn't hold the same view on mandatory background checks.
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I can only speculate but I'd be surprised if those on either side of this didn't hold the same view on mandatory background checks.
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alsaqr
Member
Sold a gun this morning.
Before selling a gun i want to see an OK concealed carry permit, military or law enforcement identification. The date and name of the person buying the gun is logged in the disposition column of my firearms database.
Before selling a gun i want to see an OK concealed carry permit, military or law enforcement identification. The date and name of the person buying the gun is logged in the disposition column of my firearms database.
We discussed the question of a private seller's possible liability in this thread: Liability with a private transaction. See posts 5 and 39 in that thread.Elkins45 said:
Actually, the rule is essentially "knowing or having reasonable cause to believe." If you're unlucky whether you had "reasonable cause to believe" will be decided by a jury -- after something bad has happened.Elkins45 said:
Elkins45
Member
^^^I had several posts in that thread. They say that memory is the second thing to go...I forget what the first thing is.
evan price
Member
I'll say the same thing I always say.
If you want to record my personal identification information, I'll need a copy of your records retention policy, your identity theft indemnification and insurance, and what penalties you incur in case of a breach. How will this be securely stored off line and if electronic, what is your policy for security against hacking? If I suffer identity theft of your records at any time how will I be notified, and can you prove your handling of my data was not the cause? What is my remedy against you for failing to properly handle my data? What happens when you decide to clean out your desk and my information is discarded? Do you verify and swear that it will be properly destroyed?
If you want to record my personal identification information, I'll need a copy of your records retention policy, your identity theft indemnification and insurance, and what penalties you incur in case of a breach. How will this be securely stored off line and if electronic, what is your policy for security against hacking? If I suffer identity theft of your records at any time how will I be notified, and can you prove your handling of my data was not the cause? What is my remedy against you for failing to properly handle my data? What happens when you decide to clean out your desk and my information is discarded? Do you verify and swear that it will be properly destroyed?
Some folks seem to have the idea that if they just sell the gun "off the record" with no paperwork, it can never be traced back to them, so no sweat if the buyer is a stickup artist or a serial killer. Believe me, if the case is big enough and there is enough pressure, you can bet the police, FBI, Secret Service, ATF, etc., will work to trace that gun to everyone who ever handled it, and then ask questions of each owner. And if you believe you can just blow them all off by lying, or saying you forget, think again. You don't want to be on the receiving end of an "intense investigation".
(Hi, Evan Price. Your advice sounds good. Have you ever tried it on the FBI or ATF? My advice is don't.)
Jim
(Hi, Evan Price. Your advice sounds good. Have you ever tried it on the FBI or ATF? My advice is don't.)
Jim
evan price
Member
(hi jim. As long as I do my due diligence I don't care about feels or wishes. The law doesnt require anything else. The few times I sold a gun it went to either a close friend or relative, or someone I trust. I don't sell to random people.)
That is a good policy, and I was just using your statement as an example of an approach that sounds good, but really won't work.
Telling a hard-nose cop or Secret Service agent what you wrote sounds good, but I wonder how it would work in the real world. I suspect not too well. In my limited experience (on the right side of the law) you do not get to question the cops, they question you. And in a really high profile case, they can question pretty hard, and even your lawyer will give them a lot of leeway.
Jim
Telling a hard-nose cop or Secret Service agent what you wrote sounds good, but I wonder how it would work in the real world. I suspect not too well. In my limited experience (on the right side of the law) you do not get to question the cops, they question you. And in a really high profile case, they can question pretty hard, and even your lawyer will give them a lot of leeway.
Jim
evan price
Member
What I'd tell a cop is, "i sold it back in (year) to (name)."
And thats if i actually remembered. I haven't sold many. And I actually know the whereabouts of probably more than half of them.
And thats if i actually remembered. I haven't sold many. And I actually know the whereabouts of probably more than half of them.
That's fine for you -- as long as you can actually remember and as long as the guy you say you sold it to doesn't dispute your story.evan price said:
Given your particular practices, only having sold a few guns and only to close friends or relatives, what you do might well work for you. That doesn't mean what you do would necessarily be the best idea for someone else.
Oh, and you might ask why someone you sold a gun to would later deny that he bought it. Well, it the gun were to have been found at the scene of a crime, I suspect the the buyer could be motivated to deny ever having had the gun in his possession.
Twiki357
Member
I’m going to give a “Depends” on if the gun is directly traceable to me. If I bought it new and it can be traced directly to me if ever used in a crime, then I want to know what direction to send the police in. If it’s an old gun that’s been around a while with a high probably of a broken ownership trail or if I bought it cash and carry, then I’ll sell it the same way.
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