Bismuth roundballs?

[JamesKelly]

Bismuth alloy balls

So-called "bismuth" bird shot is an alloy of 97% bismuth, 3% tin.
Available bismuth is very brittle & balls cast of it tend to crumble when struck.
The 3% tin is added to make it more ductile.

I do not know if more tin would make it more ductile, but it will make it less dense. My own guess is the shot makers add no more tin than necessary to keep the shot solid, as more tin both decreases density,i.e. makes the shot less effective, and increases cost (I think). I am a metallurgist but know little of bismuth alloys. I think you must locate someone who works for a (the?) bismuth producer in the US, or a manufacturer of bismuth birdshot to get a detailed answer.

There is another guy in the People's Republic of California who has experimented with various bismuth alloy balls. Think his best luck, as of January 2009, was 80% bismuth, 20% lead-free solder. The current lead-free plumbers solder is about 95% tin 5% antimony. I do not know what effect the antimony has on his cast balls.

You can buy nice brittle pieces of bismuth from rotometals.com The stuff melts at 520F so works in your lead pot. The marketig guys for bismuth say it is non-toxic. Marketing Guys are marketing guys, so be careful anyway.

By the way, it has been known since the 1890's that lead shot in the marsh poisons wildfowl, geese I believe were the first discussed. Birds gather up gravel so their gizzards can use it to grind their food. Guess they think lead shot is gravel. So the lead gets nicely ground up, goes into their systems and bye-bye. If you or I, or your neighborhood bear, eat bird shot it will mostly just pass through with little bad effect.

 

[mykeal]

It was a great quote and one very well formatted if you have any sort of sence of humor at all .

Do you honestly believe that was an attempt at humor?
I notice a lot of criticism, none of it constructive. Would anyone care to take a shot at writing a better statement?

 

[Das Jaeger]

Yes

I honestly think it was at humor , not an attempt , but done reall well too at the hypocracy of this whole topic in the hands of the powers trying to control our every move . Yup , I do .

Have a good day Das Jaeger

 

[firescout]

Screw the condors. If they can't keep up, leave 'em behind. Good old buzzards don't seem to have this problem. If lead bullets are eliminated there will be fewer gutpiles for both condors and buzzards. Why deny a buzzard a gutpile to favor a candyass condor? Why stand in the way of natural selection?

Now that science has become a game played by the elites to manipulate the rest of us, I no longer believe its findings. The "scientists" have sold out to get grants and research dollars and will "discover" whatever pleases their sponsors. Science is fast losing its credibility.
Bob

Yeah...
It seems as though the Calif Condor is just not durable enough to be a 21st century species. I am also extremely suspect of the anti-lead research.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Lead rules and all this other crap waste more game than it saves IMO. I stopped duck hunting over this no lead issue.

 

[Nicodemus38]

sadly bismuth roundballs wouldnt work very well. from shotguns they dont really seem to have the power of a real shell. heck, most ammunition sold today just doesnt have the same power or effect as a shotshell from the late 1960s. miss the old highbrass.

big reason is the barrel. youd have to get a barrel that can handle bismuth, etc. that is not availabe outsdie of shotguns.

 

[JohnKSa]

A .50 bismuth ball weighing 160 grains would penetrate better than a .45 lead ball weighing 138 grains...

Given the same basic projectile shape, the more dense one will generally penetrate better. The .50 ball will be bigger AND less dense than the .45 lead ball. I would expect it to penetrate significantly less.

By the way, pewter often contains some lead so be careful about using it as a lead substitute.

 

[arcticap]

Given the same basic projectile shape, the more dense one will generally penetrate better. The .50 ball will be bigger AND less dense than the .45 lead ball. I would expect it to penetrate significantly less.

According to the velocity and energy chart listed in the TC Sidelock Manual,
a .440 round ball weighing 127 grains fired with 110 grains of powder would produce 1314 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle.

A .490 round ball weighing 175 grains fired with 110 grains of powder would produce 1772 ft. lbs..
Since bismuth weighs 10% less than lead, if we subtract 10% from 1772 the resulting energy is still 1595 ft. lbs. at the muzzle. That means that the .50 bismuth ball has more muzzle energy than the .45 lead ball.

And the .50 caliber barrel can still be loaded with up to 120 grains of powder to effectively increase the velocity of a .50 round ball because of the corresponding larger bore diameter.

Heavier projectiles do keep their momentum for a longer distance. That's why the .54 caliber ball is more lethal at 100 yards than the .50 caliber ball.

See page 75 of the TC Manual for the muzzle energy charts:

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Shooting_TC_Side_Lock_Black_Powder_Guns.pdf

 

[JohnKSa]

That means that the .50 bismuth ball has more muzzle energy than the .45 lead ball.

Penetration is related much more closely to momentum, sectional density and (inversely) to frontal area than to energy.

Here's some interesting information from the relative penetration calculator on the Beartooth Bullets site:

Relative Penetration Index of 9.74 with a 138 grain bullet and a 0.45" meplat diameter.

Relative Penetration Index of 9.14 with a 160 grain bullet and a .50" meplat diameter.

Pretty much what I expected. If you take a larger, less dense projectile it's reasonable to assume that it will not penetrate as well as a smaller, denser projectile, all else being reasonably similar.

 

[arcticap]

The factor that's missing in the equation is the increased maximum velocity of the bismuth projectile, and what the velocity of each would theoretically be down range where the game is actually being struck by the moving ball.

The bismuth ball may have 10% or more greater velocity when it leaves the muzzle and may better maintain that greater velocity against wind resistance downrange, which is a variable.

The .50 bismuth ball just may be moving with enough additional velocity.
Plus the .45 may expand which could slow down its penetration even more on impact, which I can't say would hold true for the bismuth ball.

Because the velocity of both balls may not be relatively equal, their actual performance would be hard to prove without actually range testing their penetration at various ranges.
Since we don't have any bismuth balls, testing them would be difficult.
Even with bismuth shot loads, it's recommended to use one shot size larger than lead to make up for the slightly lighter weight of the bismuth shot.
But even if a person needed to move up 2 sizes larger of bismuth shot to equal the performance of lead shot, a similar move could be made with round balls to .54 caliber bismuth balls in order to effectively hunt with round ball in the no lead zone.
And round balls can always be cast with silver.

 

[messerist]

Basically if one is a BP hunter using a muzzleloader rifled for round balls in California you are outta luck?

 

[JohnKSa]

arcticap,

You are correct--it's going to take field testing to answer this one. My initial assessment that the .50 bismuth ball would penetrate "significantly less" is not warranted.

 

[arcticap]

In all fairness, if a bismuth ball is too brittle, breaks up when hitting bone or simply breaks up on impact, it wouldn't penetrate very well either.
Who knows?

 

[Macgille]

THere are some laws that should be ignored. The California Condor has been endangered since I was a child. (I am 70) The only place they live is near Frazier Park and they are scarce there. I say let 'em go. They are not compatible with humans and they will die out if huge money is not spent saving them. Then they will die out later. The statistice of condor deaths by lead ingestion are very questionable since the last census I heard of there were less than 300 condors in existence. So 150 have died from lead? B.S.

 

[PeashooterJoe]

In Peru, there is a ceremony known as the arranque del condor in which a live Andean Condor is suspended from a frame and is punched to death by passersby. So far our cousins to the south don't hold them in as high regard as some people do. Peashooterjoe

 

[mykeal]

Some don't hold our cousins to the south in as high a regard as some people do.