Black man with a gun - re: Laurel shooting

[AJ Dual]

And you people all think that was justifiable shooting?

Yep. (Although the story does not make it at all clear if the thieves offered any threat of violence back to the victim, perhaps they did...)

I know there's a large contingent out there who believes that property is not worth a life, even that of a criminal.

But look at it this way. How much of that man's life was "spent" earning that car? A year, two, three?

If I sat at work for three years of my time to pay for my car, and someone stole it, the way I look at it is that they just stole three years of my life. There has to be some line where personal property does indeed warrant deadly force. Your government and mine certainly thinks that an armed guard is warranted to protect money on it's way to the bank, just mere slips of paper if you look at it one way... If you try to grab a bag of money by force as they carry it into a bank or out of a store, you can bet you'll be shot. Is it ok to shoot over 30,000 slips of paper, but not shoot over a $30,000 car?

If you kill an old man who only had three years left to live is that okay?

An extreme example, but I think there is some parity there.

 

[MicroBalrog]

I understand how it's justified to shoot someone taking property by violent force (robbery) - that's not just about the property, but about the violence too.

But shooting someone (esp. a 15-yo) over a pickup truck? Do you really think property is worth more than life?

 

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

"When a car thief gets shot and killed by a car owner, it sends a message," Blanchard said. "It slows down a lot of those people who've been conditioned to think that they can get away with anything."

I'm going to have to disagree with Kenn on this one. Aside from the facts of self-defense law, there's the issue of being counterattacked. All other things being equal, a vehicle is simply not worth me losing my life, and my wife losing her husband, to some toad car thief.

- pdmoderator

 

[AJ Dual]

But shooting someone (esp. a 15-yo) over a pickup truck? Do you really think property is worth more than life?

You're not putting it in the correct context.

The question should be: "Do you really think property is worth more than someone else's life?"

podmoderator's reply is a different answer, "My property is not worth risking my life to defend it." A potentially wise answer depending on the property, and your own personal aversion to risk, but still a personal choice that does not address the morality of deadly force to stop theft.

Micro, if a Palestinian was running up to your family's home (empty, and your family safe, for the sake of argument) with a lit molotov cocktail would you shoot? Your home and everything in it is "just property" and that Palestinian is definitely in posession of a "life".

No flames, just wondering if you see property vs. life an absolute or not.

 

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

OK, Andrew:

"Thou shalt not murder."

No exceptions for the BG violating "thou shalt not steal."

- pdmoderator

 

[bigjoegood1]

Let the flames begin

IMHO, the end justifies the means. I'd be willing to bet that not one car or apartment has been broken into in Glenn Ellis' complex in at least a week.

The young man took a gamble on stealing someone else's property and paid with his life. Not everybody is a resposible firearms owner who would only shoot in self-defense.

To expand the scenario to the extreme, Glenn Ellis may have even saved lives by stopping that young man on that day. I live in PG County, MD and the fact that Glenn Ellis is not behind bars right now awaiting trial signifies that the mood is changing here and that people are fed up with crime. You THR'ers outside of the DC metro may not know it but car theft is a severe problem here and it's kids just like Sockwell who run red lights in stolen cars and kill people. DC police have resorted to setting up roadblocks to check for stolen cars in some of the higher crime areas but this is only after a big stink was made about an elderly lady who was killed in a collision with some kids out joyriding in a stolen car. This of course was right after a 13 year old kid was killed by another kid in a stolen car (in the same neighborhood).

Will Ellis be charged with a crime? You bet, but it doesn't seem like anyone is in a hurry to prosecute him. This is a calculated delay by the state's atty that sends a subtle message to would-be thieves - Proceed at your own risk. Look at what happened to little Ernest Sockwell, maybe we'll prosecute the guy who shot him, maybe we won't.

 

[seeker_two]

I hope you don't mind me saying I'm your brother.

Not at all. I just hope you don't mind admittin' to ME...

Natural Consequences at work, MB & pm. If you decide that your property is not worth defending to the fullest, why haven't you just GIVEN it away already? If it IS worth defending, then you'd better be playing to WIN---or you're just putting on a show...

Murder (according to Dictionary.com)....

The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

I don't see that Kenn had "premeditated malice" in the incident. And it will be up to the jury to decide if it is "unlawful".

Looks good to me, though...

 

[MicroBalrog]

I think, that given that the guy's life was not in danger, he could have tried to discourage the goblins ("stop or I'll shoot", warning shots, etc.), going for the less lethat response first.

At least that's what they taught me in the army.

 

[bigjoegood1]

Warning shots are illegal in Maryland as well. They carry reckless endangerment charges all their own. At least Ellis put the shots into the BG's and not into some innocent's bedroom window.

 

[DigitalWarrior]

Morally speaking

A theif is a lowly creature, not a human creature. A theif feeds on the products of a good life.

You say that insurance will pay for it. Do you understand that insurance rates are tied to payout rates (or would be in a free market). The lower the payout rate, the lower the insurance rate. So you are advocating taking money from me (because I will pay for the theft in premiums) and giving it to someone who had his vehicle stolen by some punk he wasn't allowed to shoot.

Hows this for a bumber sticker:

Reduce Auto-Insurance rates, shoot car-theives.

 

[bigjoegood1]

DigitalWarrior,

That reminds me of the time when a guy I know just happened upon some BG's breaking into his car in the middle of the night. He fired two shots into his own car and scared the perps away and the next day, refusing to repair the holes, he posted an old target from one of his better days at the range across his front seat. Needless to say he had no more problems with anyone tampering with his car again. The message was clear - Thieves beware!

 

[Zach S]

he could have tried to discourage the goblins ("stop or I'll shoot", warning shots, etc.), going for the less lethat response first.

While it may be useful in hosilte territory, a warning shot in a residential(sp) area is a needless hazard. If I miss my agressor on the first shot, they can assume thats a warning if they want.

The idea of a warning shot is pretty stupid IMO. If you cant justify deadly force why shoot? If you can justify deadly force why shoot and purposely miss?

 

[olyAR73]

"When a car thief gets shot and killed by a car owner, it sends a message," Blanchard said. "It slows down a lot of those people who've been conditioned to think that they can get away with anything."


Personal feelings aside, most states will convict for using deadly force in a property crime situation. Case in point: the gentleman in Tacoma, Wa. who chased down the teen who stole his vehicle, was recently convicted of 2nd degree Manslaughter. I dont have the link handy, but I can find it if someone needs it.

Im not saying it's wrong to use force to defend one's property. All Im saying is one should consider the reprocussions before they drop the hammer. Is it worth the court costs and possible jail time over a vehicle? To me it's not, but to others it may be.

 

[Mostly Harmless]

I hope you don't mind me saying I'm your brother.

Au contraire, mon frere!

I consider it a great honor. You do good work and I very much enjoy your writing.

As another child of the sixties, I'll happily raise a glass to you.

J.

 

[rammy]

I feel that the BG got what they deserve, I having experienced a stolen car(the car was missing for 2 days and when found had 5100.00 dollars damage done to it.) It does send a very understandable message to other prospective car thieves. I wish that more thieves would have the same fate. I have no sympathies for people that wish to let others work hard to get the things in life that they want and then just take it away without having to work hard to earn a living.

But….

With out knowing all that facts in the shooting just the ones presented in the first post, I cannot see where his life was in danger. In TN you cannot use deadly force if someone is stealing your car so long as they never come at you or cause you to believe that your life is in danger. Shooting someone that is getting into the car does not in my view present the existence of bodily harm. In this case he shot the BG’s that had not got into the SUV. (It doesn’t state weather or not they were in the process of getting in or not.) This does not make it self-defense because there was not a foreseeable risk of death or serious bodily harm. That’s how the law interprets it; at least in TN it may be different where you live.

I hope that the man will receive a light slap on the wrist and will be allowed to carry on.

it leaves a very undeniable impression "theves beware"

 

[MikeK]

I'd be willing to bet that not one car or apartment has been broken into in Glenn Ellis' complex in at least a week.

I've been wondering the same thing. A freind's son is an EMT in Laurel. There are areas they won't go unless there is a police escort.

 

[XLMiguel]

FWIW, Kenn was on WTTG (Ch. 5, Fox) this morning, gave the usual good account of himself as a great proponenet of 2nd A. rights.

It still isn't clear about what really went on that morning, but I could see a case for a good shoot based on disparity of force (4 on 1). If the thieves had a brain they'd have split when confronted. They got what they deserved, IMNSHO. PG County has some seriously tough areas & residents. The PG Co Police have an 'image problem' with excessive force, but then again, they have a lot of 'challenging opportunities' with not only the locals, but a lot of scummies from DC like to 'shop' there.

I have little sympathy for theives that get hurt 'on the job'. Mr Ellis is a tow truck driver for DC, probably makes an OK living, but that truck was also likely the better part of an after-tax year's pay for him. They didn't take his life, just a good piece of it, kinda like 'grave bodily injury'.

Then again, as a tax payer and an insurance consumer, I don't really feel I should have to subsidize the terdballs' illicit activites, either. I wouldn't shoot 'em in the back, but if I caught 'em in the act and they weren't beatin' feet . . . .

 

[Archie]

All the laws prohibiting deadly force...

in defense of property are in effect saying this:

The criminal's right to steal your property is of a higher level than your right to keep it.As has been pointed out, one's possessions represent a certain period of their life.

It is true that most places forbid deadly force in defense of "property". The bottom line is the government's indifference to the security of the regular citizen.