Black Powder First Timer Needs Some Advice!

[NCLivingBrit]

I've been looking at black powder handguns a lot lately but have so far stalled on buying one as I know -very- little about them.

I'd pretty much decided on an 1860 Army in .44, but that's mostly down to not knowing too much about what is out there. I figure I'll just fire off my questions and if they've been asked and answered before, I'll take my lumps! I read Gatofeo's excellent stickied articles but I still have a couple of questions:

1) Are the Cabela's black powder pistols and kits worth the money? And if not, where should I be shopping? I've been close to ordering the item below a mess of times, but I just don't know anyone who's shot one of their pieces and the lack of a named manufacturer makes me a little (lot) wary.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...&parentType=index&indexId=cat20817&hasJS=true

2) Is it practical to shoot BP pistols on an indoor range at all? I ask because my closest range is indoors and the only easily accessible outdoor one is a fair distance away.....

 

[Thomas Hawkins]

new BP

NC,

The pistol you are looking at is a Pietta 1860 Army. If you plan to shoot the gun it's a great deal. I have one and it is a good shooter. If you want something with a better finish you will have to go to another outlet and buy an Uberti. The one cool thing about an Uberti 1860 is that you can get a full fluted cylinder if you want. Pietta only offers a 1/2 fluted cylinder. It is my opinion that spending extra money on an Uberti is a 50/50 chance. You will get a gun with a better finish everytime but run the risk of a lemon mechanically. As for a first gun, get a less expensive one and plan to use the extra for all the other goodies you'll need.

Have fun, Tom

 

[Bad Flynch]

Well, if it were me, I'd buy one of the Uberti revolvers marketed by Cimarron. A buddy of mine has had a problematic Pietta, that was a manufacturing defect, that no one would fix.

Personally, I really like my Signature Series (3rd generation) Colt revolvers, and some of them are showing up on the online gunbrokers. However, I think that they are a little expensive for the first go-around.

I do recommend that you get one of the less expensive models, like the Pietta or Uberti and I do recommend that you get some real Black Powder with which to shoot it. You can try some of the faux powders if you want, but Black Powder is the real deal and it shoots the easiest and the best. Black Powder is really no more likely to cause corrosion than the others, either: all of them create a corrosion problem. Get some 1000+ bore butter to use over the cylinder holes and on the base pin, too. It is true that the internal parts of the cheap revolvers are soft and will wear out sooner, but sooner is a relative term and they will last plenty long enough to satisfy you. You might even not like the sport and then you would not have too much money tied up in the project. Cut your teeth the cheap way.

Shoot light loads; it will make the gun last longer, they are more accurate, and they are more fun to shoot.

 

[mainmech48]

The 1860 Colt replicas are my personal favorites. My hands are rather large, and they fit me better than most any other.

Fratelli Pietta makes the Cabela's model. They are of good quality, especially for the modest price and have given me very good service over the years. The Aldo Uberti line (now part of P.Beretta) is among the oldest in the business and is both extensive and of generally high quality. As with most things Italian, both have a history of inconsistent QC at times. CS for dealing with warranty issues is generally very good with either, IMLE (in my limited experience).

Both brands have held up well for me under quite a great deal of use over the last twenty-odd years. Uberti's are usually a good deal more expensive, and are generally conceded to have the edge where overall levels of fit and finish are concerned.

As to whether you can use them at your local indoor range, your best bet is to give them a call and ask. Some have no objections, and others don't care for the smoke as it taxes the ventilation system and annoys the uninitiated. They may also have some concerns about elevated fire hazards due to the possible presence of small amounts of unburned smokeless powder residue on the floor of their range being inadvertently ignited by sparks from BP.

 

[NCLivingBrit]

Tom said: The pistol you are looking at is a Pietta 1860 Army. If you plan to shoot the gun it's a great deal. I have one and it is a good shooter. If you want something with a better finish you will have to go to another outlet and buy an Uberti. The one cool thing about an Uberti 1860 is that you can get a full fluted cylinder if you want.

Oh this will be purely a shooter (and of course something to lovingly pet of a cold night) so I prefer a practical level of finish rather than a gleaming show-gun. What's the difference/benefit to the different types of fluting?

Bad Flynch said: I do recommend that you get one of the less expensive models, like the Pietta or Uberti and I do recommend that you get some real Black Powder with which to shoot it. ~~~~~~ Cut your teeth the cheap way.

Good advice I was planning on using proper powder as a) it's half the point of these guns and b) I keep reading pyrodex is less accurate. And like you say, if I don't like the thing I didn't lose the farm!

Mainmech48 said: Both brands have held up well for me under quite a great deal of use over the last twenty-odd years. Uberti's are usually a good deal more expensive, and are generally conceded to have the edge where overall levels of fit and finish are concerned.

Well right now price definitely edges out polish for me, so Pietta it is! Nice to know they stand up to some use though.

Thanks for all the advice guys, now I just need to count my pocket money and work out an order.... Do I need a horn as well as a measure or does a measure hold enough for a goodly amount of shots?

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

Since you are just starting out, I would recommend the lower price Pietta. Like the other poster pointed out it leaves you money to buy all the other things to go with it. Shooting with cap & ball requires more stuff than cartridge guns. Also on the off chance you don't like shooting cap & ball you don't have as much invested in it.

 

[K.A.T.]

I just purchased a slightly used colt1860 sig. series, haven't shoot it yet. New to this revolver shooting but not blackpowder.I'f I need any parts where do I buy them,which ones will fit? What size nipples? I noticed Bad Flynch has some of these revolvers,maybe he has all my answers. I'm new to this site also,thanks for the info guys.

 

[Old Dragoon]

Buy from Cabelas. If the fit and function should not be what is should be, they will replace it no questions asked.
Pietta used to be a lesser quality than Uberti, but in the last few years Pietta has purchased new NC machnery and their quality has risen to the point that they are on a par with Uberti, and on a given day, surpass them. That said, you can get a lemon from anyone. Cabelas takes their bad ones back and in some instances have sent a replacement before the old one was returned. That is good for business.

 

[Bad Flynch]

>I just purchased a slightly used colt1860 sig. series, haven't shoot it yet. New to this revolver shooting but not blackpowder.I'f I need any parts where do I buy them,which ones will fit? What size nipples? I noticed Bad Flynch has some of these revolvers,maybe he has all my answers.<

Well, it is something of a mystery. I have three 1860 Armies, 2 1851 Navies, and 2 1861 Navies. I'll get more as time goes on and the money becomes available. I called the people who made them (Colt's contractor), inquiring about some spare parts and they do not have any. They suggested that I try Dixie Gun Works. These are exact copies of the originals, so anything that fits the originals should fit them.

As a consolation--when I took mine apart, the internal parts appeared very well finished and felt and sounded hard, so they may last a while. I'm going to order some spare parts from Cimarron and see if the Uberti stuff will work. I really do not need many parts, but now and then one will botch up a screw head and it would be nice to be able to replace it.

 

[O.S.O.K.]

Good advice given

I'll just add that Cabelas does indeed give good service.

The Uberti's ( http://www.dixiegunworks.com ) are usually about $40 more than the Pietta's.

I have a Pietta that shoots well but there is one annoying aspect that I don't like - may also be present on Ubertis- others can comment. This is that the cylinder stop latch comes up and smacks the cylinder in the cut-out leading to the cylinder notch - so far, so good. The problem is that this peens the cylinder. It hasn't affected function but I don't like it - my 1858 Pietta and Uberti dragoon's do not do this - maybe a very small mark, but that's no biggy in my book. I have seen this on all the Pietta's that I've inspected.

Again, comments from Uberti 1860 owners will answer this comment - but you can avoid that all together by going with an 1858 Remington copy - about the same price and is easier to dissasemble for cleaning.

I've started recommending the 1858's for the first purchase simply due to ease of cleaning, fewer problems and they tend to be very good shooters too.

 

[BigG]

I just had a lot of general gun knowledge so I could recognize the quality of the guns. I bought an 1860 Uberti and later sold it for what I'd paid. I also bought a Colt Signature and another 1860 Uberti. All work perfectly well. I would hesitate to recommend another brand since I haven't personally used them.

But you don't want something with mechanical troubles when you are learning how to shoot cap n ball. At least I don't.

The full fluted 1860 looks like the attached -



The other gun is a 3rd Model Dragoon, Colt Signature Series

 

[Old Dragoon]

From the blue book of Modern Black Powder Arms
Colt Second Generation:
COLT´S MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC.
Current firearms manufacturer with headquarters located in West Hartford, CT.
Colt´s Manufacturing Company, Inc. is the previous manufacturer of 2nd Generation Colt percussion revolvers located in Hartford, CT. Colt used subcontractors to supply rough castings for the manufacture of these black powder pistols. Throughout the production years 1971-1982, these rough castings were produced in Italy and the reproductions were completed in the United States. Initially, Val Forgett and Navy Arms provided these parts/components during 1971-73. Lou Imperato supplied these parts from 1974-76. In both instances, these revolvers were assembled and finished in Colt´s facilities in Connecticut. Finally, from 1978-1982, Colt subcontracted both parts procurement and final production to Lou Imperato and Iver Johnson Arms in Middlesex, NJ. Colt percussion revolvers produced by Iver Johnson had frames, center pins, nipples, and screws manufactured in the United States. In all instances, these revolvers were manufactured in accordance with Colt´s strict specifications and quality control. Additionally, Colt´s performed final inspection for all models. All percussion models manufactured from 1971 through 1982, either by Colt or its subcontractor, are regarded as authentic Colt pistols and not Italian replicas.

Colt 3rd Generations:
COLT BLACKPOWDER ARMS CO.
All 3rd Generation Colt blackpowder models are also referred to as Signature Series Models.
A reprise of the original Colt Blackpowder line, along with historic models not offered in the 2nd Generation, and a new series of Commemoratives, each model (with the exception of the Heirloom Tiffany 1860 Army and 1842 Texas Paterson) bears the Sam Colt signature on the backstrap. These 3rd Generation models were manufactured under an authorized licensing agreement with Colt Firearms by Colt Blackpowder Arms Company – the same company (and many of the same craftsmen) responsible for the 2nd Generation Colt revolvers. Although parts for the Signature Series were cast in Italy, they were fully assembled and hand finished in the United States using the proprietary Colt formulas for bluing and color case hardening.
Colt Blackpowder Arms Company Signature Series revolvers are regarded as authentic Colt pistols. The 3rd Generation models have original Colt markings, including the barrel address and serial number stampings. There are no foreign proof marks on these authentic Colt models.

So in all likelihood, Uberti parts will fit.

 

[DixieTexian]

I would go ahead and get it with a starter kit. This will be good basics. You may not use all of it, but it is easy to get started with. Also, as far as the powder is concerned, Hogdon's 777 is much less corosive. There was a thread on here where a revolver was shot once a week for a long time and never cleaned, and it never rusted with 777. It isn't black powder, though, and it is expensive.

 

[O.S.O.K.]

powder

I like black for my muzzle loading but I do use Pyrodex P for my cap and ball shooting and it performs very well for me. It doesn't foul up during shooting either and is easy to clean.

FFFG Black is the ticket if you can conveniently get it - use lubed wads under the balls and you won't have any fouling problems with it either.

-----on aside - I want to thank Tinker2 for helping with my bolt stop problem - he put me on to a replacement spring available at Brownell's - item no. 394-630-000 - I ordered 2! Reduces the force but still functions perfectly - great Thanks! I had tried bending the stock spring but it didn't work too well... and I'm sure weakend the spring which will cause breakage.

 

[Lovesbeer99]

Someone mentioned other goodies. So what else do I need besides the gun, some powder, and rounds? I saw somthing about lube?

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

I addition to what you mentioned, you need caps, a capping tool, powder flask, powder measure, holster & belt, wads, lube, nipple wrench, nipple pick, cleaning kit, a loading stand or cylinder loader and a bag or pack to store all of this in. I have all my equipment and 1858 Remington clone stored in a canvas shoulder bag that is about 22" in length and about 10" in diameter with two main full length compartments and 6 side pockets. It works very well for me. There are many more things you can buy but this pretty well covers the basics for me.

 

[DixieTexian]

What he said ^^^. Only, I don't bother with a capper. I just do it by hand. Also, I wouldn't worry about a loading stand of any type until you get serious about black powder.

 

[arcticap]

Lovesbeer99,
BP revolvers need to have their cylinder pin lubed to help keep the cylinder turning. Many shooters also prefer to have either the top of their chambers lubed after loading, or to place a wad and or lube under each ball, to help prevent chainfires, and to help keep the fouling softer and easier to clean during and after shooting.
There's a lot of different kinds of lubes and home made recipes, but Wonderlube, Bore Butter or Crisco are some commonly available commercial products used, as are wax based lube pills.

 

[mainmech48]

If you're going to order the revolver from Cabela's anyway, the option which includes the "starter kit" would save you a little bit of cash. It includes balls of the proper size, a nipple wrench, a set of extra nipples, a straight-line capper, a powder flask with a spout for the standard charge volume, a jar of lube (to be used on the base pin and over the ball) and a bottle of cleaning solvent with a 'basket' for small parts. Pretty much everything you need to get started except powder and caps.

One extra that I'd recommend which isn't included would be a pack or two of dry lubricated pistol wads. These are placed between the powder charge and ball and can be used instead of the lube over the ball. Saves a lot of mess and some hassle, especially in warm weather or if you're planning to carry the revolver in a holster at the range.

The flask is much better suited to revolver shooting than the majority of the horns you'll see, although there are horns which have a similar metering spout installed on them. They are always much more expensive than a metal flask and usually come with a spout which throws a charge much heavier than you would use in a revolver. Spouts on either are usually replaceable, but why spend the extra cash when you don't need to?

For me, the main reason that I use Pyrodex P instead of 'real' FFFg is that it's much easier to come by in my area. It costs about the same, but I can get Pyrodex here in town, and it's not subject to the special purchase and storage regulations that BP has. Black powder is classified as an "explosive", the same as dynamite, now and there're only so many extra hoops that I'm personally willing to jump through for the sake of "authenticity". Pyrodex comes under the same regs as 'smokeless' powders. The law may well be different where you live, but I'd check first IIWY.

 

[Cincinnati Slim]

Gettin'Started

Howdy,

The "starter Kits" are a pretty good idea. You'll wind up replacing or upgrading everything later but the idea is to start makin' some smoke !Some items you'll also need; a small soft face hammer to knock the wedge out. Hard plastic, wood or leather face, not brass; that will leave marks, a pair of large sturdy tweezers are good for picking pesky cap fragments out of the works and a set good gunsmith screwdriver tips to fit the skinny screw slots on these revolvers all help a lot.

I also recommend replacement nipples. I like the stainless ones from Thunder Ridge Muzzleloaders. They are a perfect fit for Remington #11 caps. Some folks like Treso nipples, I believe they like #10 caps. I have installed TRM nipples on ALL my C&B revolvers and they produce very reliable ignition !

Happy Trails,

Slim

 

[NCLivingBrit]

Thanks muchly for all the advice!

If I don't end up with something metallic cartridge from the gun show, I should be ordering my first old-school hogleg fairly soon!