Black powder guns and lethality/power.

[Pete D.]

BP

Don't like BP? Hmmm.
I am the opposite: use BP regularly and 777 rarely. Some of that is because most of my shooting is done with flintlocks and the Triple won't light.
I have not found that BP is any more difficult to clean up after than 777....but, hey, shoot whacha got.
Pete

 

[PainlessWolf]

Good morning,
I think that I will recall the claim that BP guns are weak and ineffectual every time I fire the Walker, Dragoon or Lemat. As my friends stagger away, enshrouded in smoke and aflame, deafened by the BOOM of hand held artillery, I will remember how useless my wonderful revolvers are supposed to be...and reload.
regards!

 

[yugorpk]

Just don't like the smell . Reminds me of a chemical plant I used to work at. Hated that place. The sense of smell is a powerful thing .

The triple 7 is as benign as you get. More power and much easier to clean up as well.

 

[kBob]

Sorry Sharpie I stopped listening at the 12 minute or so mark. Make it short and get to the point and don't make the same point more than necessary.

Most folks know diddly about about firearms and their history. For instance the vast majority of British forces in the Crimea were NOT armed with the P53. There were Minie Rifles and even older rifles AND smooth bore muskets in the hands of British troops.

The Russians were armed with more primitive long arms, though they had some units armed with a rifle that used a mechanically fit pointed bullet with lugs that engaged the rifling on loading.

Keep in mind that a round ball is a pretty poor ballistic shape, they loose velocity VERY rapidly compared to a conical bullet. Sorry to disappoint you but European military great coats are were rather thick and heavy wool clothing under them was not uncommon, followed by cotton or linen small clothes. No doubt a round ball launched from 80 meters away would penetrate such.......but how about one fired from 300 meters away or 600 meters away. Battle fields were huge affairs and bullets had no limiters on them. It would be more than possible for instance to have bullets falling on a unit that were fired at some other unit a quarter mile away. Those might well bounce off great coats AND be reported by the lucky wearers as having come from those folks only a kick off away that he is paying rapt attention to.

Take a look at some later stuff like MacBrides a Rifleman Went to War, the Emma Gees or some other authors WWI writings. surprising numbers of folks on both sides were killed or wounded by "Coasters" bullets ambling along their then subsonic way hell and gone behind the front lines that had been fired at something near by and just continued on their merry way. Think there weren't a few coasters in the Crimea?

Further consider the effect on soft lead balls of glancing off the ground. Think a bounce half way to the target might not eat up a good bit of velocity and make the ball an even worse ballistic shape? Maybe even allow it to bounce off a three eighths inch thick piece of near felt almost stiff enough to stand on its own, backed by wool and such?

The fact that some folks reported bullets bouncing off great coats and the fact that your friend was wrong about the power of BP arms are not really related.

Just show your work and be done with it.

-kBob

 

[EljaySL]

re: bp versus 777

I'm apparently sulphur sensitive or something because at Yellowstone with those sulphur gas places I have trouble not throwing up and likewise if I get a good whiff of black powder smoke I get queasy. There's usually a light wind at the range I use, so it's not a major concern, and I use real black if there's an advantage for that particular gun, but if there's not I'd just as soon use 777. I'm glad I have options.

Getting back to the topic - I do sometimes run into people who assume black powder guns don't work very well and since I'm a reasonably accurate shot (standing, these aren't bench groups) and the holes are big they'll make some surprised comments. I think that deep sound goes through a lot of hearing protection better than modern weapons and impresses as well. Usually people end up asking questions and I slip in a little education and offer to let them shoot whatever I'm shooting.

 

[grter]

I don't think any black powder pistols will get anywhere near .44 magnum levels but the Walker with full chambers (60 grains) will get near low end .357 magnum levels.

The standard .44 pistols are like .38 specials in ballistics using typical loads but pistols like the ROA when loaded hot with triple seven can get to .45 ACP power levels which is nothing to balk at. I suppose you can safely hot load modern steel remmies too but I wouldn't want to risk shooting them loose prematurely.

The Ruger Old Army can also safely handle a cylinder full of compressed ffffg powder, that's right 4f flintlock priming powder. I wonder how much power those loads can dish out.

As has always been said with muzzleloaders accuracy will vary depending bullet type, weight, and type of charge.

Accuracy with optimaly loaded rifled muzzleloaders is usaully no different than with modern firearms.

Now when you get to black powder rifles they can have quite fearsom and devastating ballistics with massive muzzle energy behind the projectiles.

I sure would not be comfortable standing in front of a .69 caliber round ball propelled from a flintlock pistol by a 60 to 70 grain charge of powder no matter how thick my coat is.

 

[ofitg]

Ed Sanow published some ballistic gel test data for percussion revolvers in the Feb'1998 issue of Handguns magazine..... Sanow & Marshall also included gel test data in their book, Street Stoppers.

It was interesting to see that the wound channel for a .44 Colt Army (round ball at 935 fps) was nearly identical to the wound channel for a modern .357 Remington 158gr SJHP (velocity 1235 fps).

 

[grter]

What most people who are used to modern firearms don't understand it that ammunition for muzzleloaders are made of very soft lead which can deform upon impact a lot more than bullets for modern firearms which need to be harder to withstand being striped by the rifling because of the much higher pressures and velocities smokeless powder generates.


The lethality of soft lead projecticles from black powder guns is generally well known and time tested but they were used at a time when modern methods of ballistic analysis that are currently used in this smokeless powder era were not available.

That means you are not going to see loads of scienctific data backed by massive trials using balistic gel, chronographs, empirical statistics and so forth.

 

[ofitg]

What most people who are used to modern firearms don't understand it that ammunition for muzzleloaders are made of very soft lead which can deform upon impact a lot more than bullets for modern firearms which need to be harder to withstand being striped by the rifling because of the much higher pressures and velocities smokeless powder generates.

This is why comparing energy levels between soft lead bullets and modern jacketed bullets can be misleading. A modern jacketed bullet can expend a large part (maybe half) of its energy deforming itself.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

A friend of mine UNLOADED his 1858 Remington at the end of muzzleoader season in a 5 inch sycamore tree and in 6 shots the tree toppled. Basically cut the tree in half. This was at about 15 to 20 yards with 454 round balls.

Not the power of a 44 mag but from my own eyes I'd say more lethal than a 38 special.

 

[yugorpk]

I don't think any black powder pistols will get anywhere near .44 magnum levels but the Walker with full chambers (60 grains) will get near low end .357 magnum levels.

The standard .44 pistols are like .38 specials in ballistics using typical loads but pistols like the ROA when loaded hot with triple seven can get to .45 ACP power levels which is nothing to balk at. I suppose you can safely hot load modern steel remmies too but I wouldn't want to risk shooting them loose prematurely.

The Ruger Old Army can also safely handle a cylinder full of compressed ffffg powder, that's right 4f flintlock priming powder. I wonder how much power those loads can dish out.

As has always been said with muzzleloaders accuracy will vary depending bullet type, weight, and type of charge.

Accuracy with optimaly loaded rifled muzzleloaders is usaully no different than with modern firearms.

Now when you get to black powder rifles they can have quite fearsom and devastating ballistics with massive muzzle energy behind the projectiles.

I sure would not be comfortable standing in front of a .69 caliber round ball propelled from a flintlock pistol by a 60 to 70 grain charge of powder no matter how thick my coat is.

You are underestimating how much power a full charge of Triple 7 can have. A garden variety 44 magnum load pushes a 240 grain bullet at 1180 FPS. Not talking about the bone crushing stuff. Just run of the mill off the shelf 44 mag Remington Express shells. Those are ballistics that are easily duplicated with vibratory settled and moderately compressed Triple 7 3FG using Keith style bullets.

With Triple 7 , 255 Hornadys and a classicballistx cylinder I can get well into the high 800's ft/lbs. That being said a stout 45 colt load in a old vaquero or a decent 44 mag load will run into the 1200 ft/lb range.

 

[72coupe]

The frame on my Lyman 1858 is cast iron. I am sure I will not be subjecting it to that kind of stress.

 

[joem1945]

I used to shoot a lot of BP in my 50 cal hawken and mountain pistol. Pack 93 gr of FFFg in it and it will give you a good thump.

 

[doubleh]

Many years ago I did a little test between my ROA shooting all the 4f Goex it would hold and a .457 round ball and my Super Blackhawk shooting 240 gr. factory loads. I was shooting some 8"x8"x16" concrete blocks at about 20 yards. The ordinary blocks with holes in them that are used in all kinds of construction. The ROA would knock a pretty good sized chunk of concrete off a block. The 44 mag would just destroy a block with one shot.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Historically speaking, the early Colt Paterson .36s employed by the Texas Rangers turned the tide against the Comanche, but the Rangers still went on the offensive at nearly point blank range. While many a warrior fell from their ponies, some rounds actually bounced off the thick and tough buffalo shields of a lucky few, especially if shot at on an angle.

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

@sharpie 443

How are you getting that kind of power out of a BP revolver? With Remington I can only get .38 special levels of power out of it ~250ft-LBS. are you using a dragoon or walker pistol? I might be able to get those numbers with my heavy dragoon pistol but that's .54 caliber. Just interested. I hunt coyotes with my Remington so more power would be nice.

There is a formula for figuring Ft pound of energy

velocity squared divided by 7000 divided by 64.32 x bullet weight in grains

so average 800fps / 7000 (# grains in pound) avg round ball 140

800 x 800 / 7000 / 64.32 x 140 = 199 ft#
900 x 900 / 7000 / 64.32 x 140 = 251 ft#
1000 x 1000 / 7000 / 64.32 x140 = 310 ft#
but if we jump to a conical my favorite that I cast is 190 gr

800 x 800 / 7000 / 64.32 x 190 =270 ft#
But I do average slightly above 900 fps regularly

945 x 945 / 7000 /64.32 x 190 = 376 ft #

Lethal? Yes properly loaded these are every bit as lethal as a modern gun

The original 1911 for many years only had a Muzzle velocity of around 800 fps.
The military liked it as it was considered a man stopper.
Slow moving heavy slug,

 

[medic15al]

A while back I posted some velocity readings of .45 Colt Black powder loads using 40 grns 3FG of Olde Eynsford under a 250 grn bullet.

Shot out of 4.75 in, 5.5 in, and 7.5 in barreled SAA clones.

The 5.5 inch barrel averaged around 1016 FPS IIRC. (have to get my load records out to confirm)

No way BP is weak. All in context of powder charge and bullet weight.

ETA: Here it is!

The guns used are a Pietta (Heritage Big Bore) 4 3/4in, Cimarron Old Model P 5 1/2in, and a Uberti Old Model P 7 1/2in.

The load is 40 grns of FFFG (3F) Olde Eynsford under a 250grn PRS Big Lube bullet. All loads fired 10 feet from chrono.

4 3/4 Bbl Pietta:

1. 925
2. 903
3. 927
4. 923
5.934
Average 922.4

Cimarron 5 1/2 Bbl :

1. 1004
2. 967
3. 1048
4. 1070
5. 1047
Average 1027.2

Uberti 7 1/2 Bbl:

1. 1028
2. 1049
3. 1018
4. 1026
5. 1010
Average 1026.2

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

medic15al et al

Has anyone gotten any ballistics numbers on a Pietta 12" barrelled steel frame cb or .45 Long Colt conversion cylinder Bison/Buffalo. While a total fantasy piece I would assume the long barrel would result in a more complete and efficient bp burn, thereby leading to higher power numbers.

 

[yugorpk]

You'll get a MUCH better burn rate out of a cartridge burning black powder than you will out of a BP revolver. The cartridge primers are so much better. Ive seen 100+ more FPS from similar loads cartridge versus .

Ever want to have fun? Get yourself a Blackhawk or old Vaquero and stuff 40 grains of 3F Triple 7 in a 45 Colt case. Takes a little setting and some compression with a 250 grain bullet. Don't try it in a conversion cylinder or you'll wish you hadnt. Trust me. Light that off. 1350+ FPS . Feels like a Buffalo Bore 45 colt load going off.

 

[medic15al]

Elhombre... I haven't shot my rounds out of a barrel of that length yet. The Pietta 1860 Army 44 I had had an 8 in barrel and I filled the chambers just below the top and seated .454 dia. Hornady round ball of 141 grains. with the Olde Eynsforde 3FG powder at about 38 grains clocked around 1170 out of my revolver.

 

[rodwha]

A fellow researching Civil War paper cartridges found that the Hazard's Pistol Powder cartridge with a conical was loaded with 4F powder and the powder gave figures like that of Swiss powder according to the pendulum testing they did. Granted the powder volume is decreased when using those long conicals.

This fellow gave permission to pass along his research and so I've saved it. If anyone wants it I'll email it to you.

 

[Crawdad1]

Elhombre... I haven't shot my rounds out of a barrel of that length yet. The Pietta 1860 Army 44 I had had an 8 in barrel and I filled the chambers just below the top and seated .454 dia. Hornady round ball of 141 grains. with the Olde Eynsforde 3FG powder at about 38 grains clocked around 1170 out of my revolver.

That's about 429 ft./lbs. of energy and deep into 45 ACP range. I would say that's pretty lethal.

 

[BigBore45]

I ran 35 grains by volume of T7 fffg in my 5.5" 1858 with 200 grain cronical for an average velocity of 1128fps. It was around 500+ ft/lbs of energy.

Same load with a 140 grain round ball was 1230 fps at around 480 ft/ lbs of energy.

That will not bounce off a coat.

 

[Hookeye]

Wonder how many soldiers wounded by BP projectiles ultimately died later from infection (if no infected, just took a while to expire).

#11 ignition. I preferred FFg in my .50 cal rifles.
Sidehammer or inline.

T7 with musket caps works, do think it cleans up better.

After shooting in my then new New Englander .50..........iron sights, off the bench (sandbag front) I put three .495" Hornady swaged launched by 100gr FFg Goex...........into a cloverleaf, in the X.

It'd string vertically until it had about 50 shots through it. After that it shot great. Popped a running 9 pt with it at 50 yards.

Same load, from an old Renegade............also shot great. Popped a quartering away deer at the edge of paunch, exit was opp side of windpipe. Pinwheeled.

178 yards. Offhand. Iron sights.

But then we shot from the parking lot at the local club, which put our clay pigeons on the bank at 175 yards. Big bank, we learned how much drop there was.

So when the deer stopped, I stepped over and lined her up with a tree, picked a corresponding spot on the tree, and killed her.

About that particular Renegade............got it cheap, like new. Bud missed an elk with it.
The bbl hook and tang were funky in fit...........some drunk at TC put that gun together.
I glass bedded it, filled stripped screw holes in the walnut.........and ditched the tang peep (used bl sights). That got it to shoot fantastic.

Buddy ran tang sight. Ran it OK in zero, but suspect it shifted and caused a high or low shot when he got a rip on an elk.

Too bad he didn't discover the problem before. Or just went with bbl sights all the way.

 

[Iggy]

This old reproduction of a .54 caliber Hawken has taken Antelope, Mule Deer, and Elk
with a healthy dose of 2FFg and a patched round ball.

Ball went plumb through all of them.. One from front to back.

Don't know about FPS and all that stuff, just know the old rascal will make meat.