Black powder in modern .38 revolvers?

[barnetmill]

Has anyone tried reloading with black powder and modern primers in .38 spl in modern S&WK-frame revolvers? Will the modern guns handle the fouling and crud? Will the rifling properly engage bullets with such loads?

 

[rcmodel]

Yes they will, for a while.
The direct ancestors of them were designed for black powder back in the day.

But do you Really want to detail clean one after every time doing it???

Rc

 

[barnetmill]

Yes they will, for a while.
The direct ancestors of them were designed for black powder back in the day.

But do you Really want to detail clean one after every time doing it???

Rc

Thanks for your response.
The cleaning is an important detail. No I do not want shoot powder and never said I did. I wanted to know if it could be done with reasonable accuracy. From your response it is not clear if you have done it. Please have you fired BP in a K frame?
Some times you must use what you have or can get. Knowing things before hand can be useful.

 

[EljaySL]

Heck, you can even run a semi auto on black powder, although you might have to use a lighter spring. If you check YouTube you can find videos of people shooting them in Glocks and 1911s at a minimum.

You might also want to read this prior thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=235669

 

[RPRNY]

I have fired black powder 45lc in a modern Ruger Vaquero. Similar dynamics.

You can readily use black powder with your k frame S&W with plenty of accuracy and stopping power.

It wants oversized, soft lead bullets lubed with black powder lube such as 40% beeswax 40% Crisco 20% olive oil. Less oil in the heat more in the cold. The lube is critical to softening the fouling and ensuring it largely clears each shot.

You need to determine groove diameter and load soft lead - BHN 10 and below - at .002 -.003" diameter larger than groove diameter.

With good lube and bullet fit, you will likely be able to shoot 4 -6 cylinders before you get any binding. Cleaning is less work than made out. Hot water and dishwashing liquid applied liberally, dried off and wiped down with Ballistol will sort you out.

Black powder is fun and effective with good lubing and sizing. Enjoy!

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

38 Special was originally loaded with Black Powder. That is why the case is so long, to leave enough room for a good charge of Black Powder. Here is a page from a reprint of a Smith & Wesson catalog from about 1900 showing the amounts of BP in a few cartridges sold at the time by S&W. The first version of the modern K frame revolver was first made in 1899, so these cartridges would have been used in it at the time.



Have I ever shot BP out of a modern Smith? Nope. I have not wanted to bother cleaning one after shooting Black Powder. But I shoot Black Powder in Colts and other single action revolvers all the time and would not hesitate to do so in a modern Smith if I felt the need.

 

[Patocazador]

A Ruger Old Army is essentially a modern gun. Forum member Doak machined capsules that use small pistol or small rifle primers to ignite the charge, not a whole lot of difference.

 

[Bigdog57]

"With good lube and bullet fit, you will likely be able to shoot 4 -6 cylinders before you get any binding."

Hmmm.....Twice the cylinders full that I get with "Flammable Dirt" (aka Unique!)

 

[the Black Spot]

You should see the flame come out on my CA bulldog .44 special when i shoot BP out of it! For self defense, if the bullet doesnt stop them, the smoke and smell might!

 

[BCRider]

As far as accuracy goes the bullets don't care what is pushing them. If they fit well and shoot well when pushed by smokeless they'll work just as well when pushed by BP.

Will the modern guns handle the fouling and crud?

Some prep work is needed before you shoot with black powder. Namely melting out the lube and replacing it with one that is black powder compatible as mentioned already or casting fresh bullets and filling the lube grooves with this same stuff. The other thing is to clean the gun and relube with a BP compatible lubricant such as Ballistol. Other gun oils can produce a sticky tar like combination when mixed with BP fouling.

I actually saw that happen a couple of weeks ago when someone shot Pyrodex loads in a cowboy action match without changing the sort of oil they had in the gun. We had to work in some Ballistol to loosen the cylinder up. It was fine for the rest of the day after that.

Cleaning afterwards would pretty much require that the crane retention screw be taken out, the crane and cylinder removed and the ejector assembly stripped down. A lot of the fouling will be pushed into the ejector assembly and cylinder arbor so this can't be skipped.

Which is why when folks want to shoot black powder cartridges from a revolver it's more common to do so with a single action style since it breaks down more easily to clean it. But certainly a K frame CAN shoot black powder loads just fine.

 

[aarondhgraham]

I fired 15 rounds of SASS BP loads from a Model 67,,,

I fired 15 rounds of SASS BP loads from a S&W Model 67,,,
A friend got out of SASS and sold all of his gear,,,
He later found and gave me the cartridges.

They fired well enough,,,
Accuracy was just like normal,,,
But after the 15th round the gun was filthy.

Like the cylinder was dragging filthy.

I ended up shooting the remaining 35 rounds through an H&R Handi-Rifle.

Aarond

.

 

[Old Fuff]

The .38 Special cartridge was originally designed to be loaded with black powder, and introduced by Smith & Wesson in 1899 along with the first K-frame Military & Police revolver, that is now known as the model 10. From then to now the basic design of the gun hasn't been changed - so if someone want's to shoot charcoal-based powder in one they can do so.

However I am hard put to think of any good reason anyone would want to. Doing so wouldn't offer any particular advantages, and does leave fouling that has to be cleaned up.

 

[TRX]

I ran a few cylinderfulls of black powder in my .357 Security Six just for kicks. It was worth it just to see the expressions of the adjacent shooters at the range... Also shot a few mags' worth through my SMLE and '91 Mauser.

A friend who shoots black powder pistols has a bucket full of a solvent called "Var-Sol." He removes the grips, dunks the gun, hits a few crevices with a toothbrush, and lets it dry.

 

[Bigdog57]

Or, use the wife's dishwasher while she is out visiting her girlfriends......

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Cleaning afterwards would pretty much require that the crane retention screw be taken out, the crane and cylinder removed and the ejector assembly stripped down. A lot of the fouling will be pushed into the ejector assembly and cylinder arbor so this can't be skipped.

Howdy again

I do not recommend stripping down the ejector assembly of a K frame Smith. Too easy to bend or spring something.

I shoot Black Powder in revolvers all the time, including antique Smith and Wesson Top Break revolvers. The first thing I do before shooting Black Powder in any revolver, antique or modern, is to completely degrease the mechanism with a strong solvent such as lacquer thinner or paint thinner. Then I completely relubricate the mechanism with a Black Powder compatible lube such as Ballistol. I also make sure I have cleaned all Smokeless fouling from the chambers and bore and relubricate them with a light coating of Ballistol.

Of course, I only shoot Black Powder cartridges that have a BP compatible bullet lube such as SPG.

Lastly, when cleaning the revolvers, particularly an antique S&W Top Break, I do not disassemble the cylinder ejector mechanism. I simply remove the cylinder and work lots of my favorite water based BP solvent through the ejector mechanism. This flushes out all the BP fouling that has worked its way inside.

If I were to go to the trouble to shoot BP in a modern revolver, I would do all those things; disassemble the gun and relubricate with Ballistol, shoot cartridges that have a BP compatible lube, and finally, when it came time to clean I would remove the cylinder crane assembly to clean it, but I would go no further disassembling it.

Frankly, I can't imagine why I would go to all this trouble. Impressing other shooters on the firing line is certainly not a reason to do this.

 

[D. Buck Stopshere]

A friend of mine here in NC took a S&W model 586 (L Frame) and gave it to the late Tom "Mulie" Ball. Tom machined a replacement percussion cylinder to fit the revolver.

My friend used it for years, competing in the National matches at Friendship in the Open Revolver Aggregate. A ball or bullet can be used at this level, so my friend, Lynn loaded the cylinders with 16 grains of 4FG GOEX and Hornady .358 Hollow Base Wadcutters @ 148 grains. Nice thing about wadcutters; no ragged holes in a paper target. It shot very well at 50 yards offhand.

When I shot nearby Lynn on the national line back in the '90's, I'd watch some of the "first timer" competitors do a double-take when they saw Lynn point what looked a Colt Python at a target and watch it smokin'.

Lynn won the National Pistol Championship in 1997, though not with the help of the the S&W 586. He switched over to his newer creation from Tom Ball; a Ruger "Old Navy". .36 caliber with octagon barrel and Bo-Mar sights. I bought that from Lynn a couple of years ago, and use it as a back-up to my Ruger "Old Army" .44 "Dragoon model" (Brass grip frame, square back triggerguard).

 

[StrawHat]

I used black powder 38 Specials in a PPC match, once. I made sure I was upwind of the other competitors and proceeded to fire stage one. Lot's of howling and laughing! The funny thing, the scores for the match were about the same as scores from other matches, mine and the rest of the competitors.

It was a bit of fun but I never repeated the trick. I have used black powder in 38s since then but not in competition.

Kevin