Black Powder Revolvers

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I'm not an expert of course. I mean, sure, I've put thousands of rounds through these guns, they've been around for decades and one might expect the people who have been making them for all that time to know what they are talking about, but I'm not an expert like some others here. Seriously, look at all of the times Kirst and Howell's have been sued for ruining the guns of people that followed their advice about using their products. Oh wait, no one has sued them. Because they make conversions specifically for Uberti and Pietta guns, are aware of their quality standards of those guns and how they are made, advise people as to what sort of loads to use based on that knowledge and experience. But what do they know? And the thousands and thousands of people who have been using these products successfully for ages without any mishaps? Just lucky I guess.

Lord forbid we should advise people based on actual experience, or the long and well known modern history of the use of these guns by target shooters, Cowboy Action Shooting competitors, history enthusiasts or the manufacturers that have been making and selling the conversions for all of these years.
 
I'm not an expert of course. I mean, sure, I've put thousands of rounds through these guns, they've been around for decades and one might expect the people who have been making them for all that time to know what they are talking about, but I'm not an expert like some others here. Seriously, look at all of the times Kirst and Howell's have been sued for ruining the guns of people that followed their advice about using their products. Oh wait, no one has sued them. Because they make conversions specifically for Uberti and Pietta guns, are aware of their quality standards of those guns and how they are made, advise people as to what sort of loads to use based on that knowledge and experience. But what do they know? And the thousands and thousands of people who have been using these products successfully for ages without any mishaps? Just lucky I guess.

Lord forbid we should advise people based on actual experience, or the long and well known modern history of the use of these guns by target shooters, Cowboy Action Shooting competitors, history enthusiasts or the manufacturers that have been making and selling the conversions for all of these years.

So, in your inexpert opinion, what amount of smokeless powder and what load data are you willing to guaranty as safe in revolvers made for, and marked as, for use with black powder only?
 
So, in your inexpert opinion, what amount of smokeless powder and what load data are you willing to guaranty as safe in revolvers made for, and marked as, for use with black powder only?

Why aren't you addressing any of the points I made? Why aren't you refuting them with evidence in support of your position? Why are you using the cheap internet troll tactic of trying to put the onus on me to defend my points with an irrelevant question?

I don't make and sell cartridge conversions or black powder revolvers, so it's not my place to guarantee anything. I can report that I have fired thousands of smokeless rounds through Pietta revolvers with Kirst cartridge conversions, in accordance with Kirst's instructions, without incident. The exact load I use is a 200gr. RNFP over 8.0gr of Unique with a CCI 300 primer. Of course I was just lucky, and so were thousands upon thousands of other people whose experience mirrors my own.

Let me ask you a question- what qualifies you to contradict decades of experience and thousands of rounds fired, the manufacturers of cartridge conversions and thousands upon thousands of shooters across the world that have been doing this for decades? What massive fund of knowledge renders your opinion superior to real life results? What received wisdom qualifies you to contradict everyone else's experience? Are you immune to empirical evidence? Seriously, when reality contradicts your opinion, reality isn't the one that is wrong.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, for what it's worth... and by this point I think we're all pretty much aware what your opinion is worth.
 
Why aren't you addressing any of the points I made? Why aren't you refuting them with evidence in support of your position? Why are you using the cheap internet troll tactic of trying to put the onus on me to defend my points with an irrelevant question?

I don't make and sell cartridge conversions or black powder revolvers, so it's not my place to guarantee anything. I can report that I have fired thousands of smokeless rounds through Pietta revolvers with Kirst cartridge conversions, in accordance with Kirst's instructions, without incident. The exact load I use is a 200gr. RNFP over 8.0gr of Unique with a CCI 300 primer. Of course I was just lucky, and so were thousands upon thousands of other people whose experience mirrors my own.

Let me ask you a question- what qualifies you to contradict decades of experience and thousands of rounds fired, the manufacturers of cartridge conversions and thousands upon thousands of shooters across the world that have been doing this for decades? What massive fund of knowledge renders your opinion superior to real life results? What received wisdom qualifies you to contradict everyone else's experience? Are you immune to empirical evidence? Seriously, when reality contradicts your opinion, reality isn't the one that is wrong.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, for what it's worth... and by this point I think we're all pretty much aware what your opinion is worth.

It's not my opinion.

The manufacturers of black powder revolvers mark their revolvers with their opinion. Under the CIP regime, European made revolvers are proofed accordingly and are not proofed for smokeless powder. "For Use with Black Powder Only" is the opinion of the manufacturer and the assertion of the CIP. There is no exemption offered such as "except when used with a cartridge conversion cylinder" .

So, again, in your inexpert opinion, what amount of smokeless powder and what load data for smokeless powder do you guaranty as safe in black powder revolvers?

If you aren't prepared to make such guarantees then I would suggest that you not offer advice to peop!e on the internet that in your, albeit inexpert, opinion, black powder revolvers, so marked and proofed, may be used to shoot smokeless cartridges of unknown loading and pressures in conversion cylinders that you don't manufacture.

If you want to suggest that loads of smokeless powder in cartridges in conversion cylinders that don't exceed the pressures of black powder loads are likely to be safe in those cylinders and in those revolvers, you won't get any argument from me. But you didn't. You offered open and unqualified, even if inexpert, endorsement for the use of smokeless powder in conversion cylinders in revolvers manufactured for and proofed for black powder use only. Doing so is dangerous and irresponsible. And attacking the person that points that fact out to you is neither clever, nor appropriate for THR.
 
The Italian made BP revolvers are proofed for black powder loads using cylinders meant for cap and ball. Using the American made conversion cylinders constructed of a different steel means that the original proofing is not relevant. The fact remains that thousands of rounds of homeless powder loads have been put thru them and usually are low pressure cowboy loads.
 
I appreciate your conversion cylinders, but I enjoy shooting cap&ball for what it is.
View attachment 902684
I have cartridge guns.

Both unconverted and converted are good.

In the case of the converted Pietta I posted above, it's the closest I'll get to a 19th Century factory conversion. At the time I converted it, Uberti's replicas of the factory conversions weren't available.

The fact that I was able to put it together without having to do any paperwork is a side benefit.
 
The open top conversions from Uberti are built on the same frame as the cap gun. The Navy frame. The '51 conversion, Richards, '60 Richards Mason, '71/72 Open Top. Some are offered in 45C.

My own Army shoots the same rounds as my Dragoons (250 gr rnfp at 850 -900 fps). A frame is just a support system for a pressure vessel. The cylinder is the "important" part. Of course, if there is excessive endshake, it becomes a slide hammer and will do damage just as any revolver. If there are any examples of a frame failing, it would most likely be because of excessive endshake.
As a note though, the Colt pattern open top conversions have the same malady as the cap versions, short arbors. Once that is addressed (and all else correctly fitted) they are just as reliable as any modern S.A. (because they really are).

Mike
 
And attacking the person that points that fact out to you is neither clever, nor appropriate for THR.[/QUOTE]

I didn't attack you; I pointed out that you are engaging in sophistry and common tactics used by internet trolls, which is true. I implied that that your opinion is without foundation or merit, which vast real-world experience indicates is true. I have presented information in support of this, which you have completely ignored. If firing smokeless cartridges in these guns or advising others to do so was dangerous and irresponsible the experience of thousands of shooters over decades of time would bear that out. It absolutely does not, a fact that you refuse to address. Instead you challenge me to 'guarantee' that it's safe. Since no amount of evidence or real-world experience will convince you why are you willing to accept my 'guarantee?' You aren't; this is just a common tactic for people arguing untenable positions when they are incapable of admitting that they are wrong.

Let's break this down. Instead of addressing facts and real world experience that is contrary to your opinion, you challenge me to guarantee something, knowing that no reasonable person unrelated to the products in question would issue such a guarantee. You do this so that you can claim my inability to do so will invalidate my point. It doesn't, it just lets you dodge the question of real world experience and evidence that you cannot refute.

Please address the actual facts in the real world, in other words that there is no evidence to support your claims about the dangers of shooting smokeless powder in modern cartridge conversions. We are abundantly aware that the guns say, 'black powder only.' We are aware that they are proofed for black powder. We are also aware that Kirst and Howell cartridge conversions are made with modern materials and heat treat, rendering the European proofs irrelevant. We are also aware that thrust, or recoil, is what causes axis pins to pull out or, theoretically, frames to stretch, not pressure. We are aware that the manufacturers of conversions know this,and base their recommendations for loads on this. We are aware that original guns were often made of wrought iron, and are aware than modern cap and ball revolvers are made of steel, and are far stronger than the originals. We are aware that there is not the least evidence in actual fact that firing smokeless loads in these guns is in any way dangerous if the conversion manufacturer's advice is heeded. Please stop side-tracking the discussion to avoid addressing those issues. All you have demonstrated so far is that you can read the writing on a gun and know how to avoid addressing facts that contradict your opinion. You have not offered a single shred of evidence to counter the argument that events and experience in the real world invalidate your argument.

I think pretty much everyone is aware at this point that you are not making a rational, fact-based argument in support of your opinion. You've also made it plain that no information, no experience is sufficient to sway your opinion, and that you will not directly address any argument that refutes your opinion. The evidence says one thing, you say another and will not support your argument. Responding to you further is pointless, and I won't.
 
Haaaa!! Well, Pat Riot is probably right as far as the Howel conversion is concerned.
I forget to make it understood that when I talk about open top conversions, I'm talking about Kirst conversions.
What's the difference? Well, the Kirst has a full conversion ring which is fully supported by the recoil shield. When fired, the case backs up against the supported steel ring. On the other hand, the Howell conversion cyl (not the gated conversion) has a removable end cap for loading and unloading. It mimics the breech end of the cap cyl. The cap cyl in a Colt pattern open top revolver recoils against a "recoil ring". That's not near the amount of surface of a ring supported by the shield. The makeup for the Remington pattern is a little different than the Colt pattern so it offers a little better support for the drop cyl conversion, but still not full support.
I like the 6 shot Howell for Remingtons, the Kirst gated conversion for the Colt pattern.
So, when I'm talking about my 45 Army and Dragoons, it pertains to a Kirst setup. For Remington's it's the Howell.

Mike
 
I didn't attack you; I pointed out that you are engaging in sophistry and common tactics used by internet trolls, which is true. I implied that that your opinion is without foundation or merit, which vast real-world experience indicates is true. I have presented information in support of this, which you have completely ignored. If firing smokeless cartridges in these guns or advising others to do so was dangerous and irresponsible the experience of thousands of shooters over decades of time would bear that out. It absolutely does not, a fact that you refuse to address. Instead you challenge me to 'guarantee' that it's safe. Since no amount of evidence or real-world experience will convince you why are you willing to accept my 'guarantee?' You aren't; this is just a common tactic for people arguing untenable positions when they are incapable of admitting that they are wrong.

Let's break this down. Instead of addressing facts and real world experience that is contrary to your opinion, you challenge me to guarantee something, knowing that no reasonable person unrelated to the products in question would issue such a guarantee. You do this so that you can claim my inability to do so will invalidate my point. It doesn't, it just lets you dodge the question of real world experience and evidence that you cannot refute.

Please address the actual facts in the real world, in other words that there is no evidence to support your claims about the dangers of shooting smokeless powder in modern cartridge conversions. We are abundantly aware that the guns say, 'black powder only.' We are aware that they are proofed for black powder. We are also aware that Kirst and Howell cartridge conversions are made with modern materials and heat treat, rendering the European proofs irrelevant. We are also aware that thrust, or recoil, is what causes axis pins to pull out or, theoretically, frames to stretch, not pressure. We are aware that the manufacturers of conversions know this,and base their recommendations for loads on this. We are aware that original guns were often made of wrought iron, and are aware than modern cap and ball revolvers are made of steel, and are far stronger than the originals. We are aware that there is not the least evidence in actual fact that firing smokeless loads in these guns is in any way dangerous if the conversion manufacturer's advice is heeded. Please stop side-tracking the discussion to avoid addressing those issues. All you have demonstrated so far is that you can read the writing on a gun and know how to avoid addressing facts that contradict your opinion. You have not offered a single shred of evidence to counter the argument that events and experience in the real world invalidate your argument.

I think pretty much everyone is aware at this point that you are not making a rational, fact-based argument in support of your opinion. You've also made it plain that no information, no experience is sufficient to sway your opinion, and that you will not directly address any argument that refutes your opinion. The evidence says one thing, you say another and will not support your argument. Responding to you further is pointless, and I won't.

I am surprised that you keep at this. And that you continue to attack me for stating fact. Again, none of this is my opinion. It is the opinion of the manufacturers and the CIP. You have completely failed to address that fact. And your experience does not substitute for that of the manufacturer or the CIP.

It is dangerous and irresponsible to endorse smokeless powder use in black powder revolvers without qualifying that with reference to pressure levels consistent with black powder loads. You did not. Then you back-filed and shilly-shallied to It But still didn't have the spine and integrity to admit your mistake and continue attacking me for having pointed out the facts, facts that cannot be disputed. Pretty unimpressive behavior.

Facts: the Euopean made cap and ball revolvers are marked by the manufacturer "for black powder use only". They are proofed by the CIP For Black Powder Use only. There is no exemption made for use with cartridge conversion cylinders.

Loading cartridges for use in conversion cylinders with smokeless powder to pressure levels consistent with black powder levels is LIKELY safe.

Those are facts. Everything else is conjecture and opinion to varying degrees. And the failure to clearly state that smokeless use in cartridges must be kept in line with black powder pressure levels is dangerous and irresponsible. Calling me a troll and other insults does not change facts.
 
Good golly fellas, you're on the verge of queering an otherwise informative and highly important thread.

Could you please retreat to your neutral corners for the sake of the information already presented and any future additions.

Both positions have merit but let it go for now so we can continue to share this great information.

Todd.
 
To those more computer savvy than myself: How do I set up my account to automatically and immediately delete these posts of DocRock, but still allow me to enjoy and appreciate the comments and input of Tinker and others?

BOARHUNTER
 
I have three, two Howells and one Taylor's. All get a steady diet of smokeless under a variety of bullets. The smokeless is TrailBoss however and velocities are kept in accordance with the cylinder manufacturers instructions. One is in a ROA but it too only gets target velocity loads. In my case loading up to higher velocities is pointless.
 
My GOD!! It's the cylinders that can't be used with smokless powder in a cap and ball revolver!!!

A modern conversion cylinder made to contain smokless loads is perfectly fine in the revolvers they are made for.

Hint: nobody in their right mind would sell a cyl. that would blow at 851 fps so they warn 850fps or less!! Are you serious??

Cabin fever run amok !!!

Mike
 
To those more computer savvy than myself: How do I set up my account to automatically and immediately delete these posts of DocRock, but still allow me to enjoy and appreciate the comments and input of Tinker and others?

BOARHUNTER
Now that’s BS for sure. Kinda of one sided on your part. Both sides have been cordial, both have fair points. One is following manufacturers recommendations to the letter. one is using experience to point out something different. User name clearly preceded post. Skip where appropriate. Just saying no animosity intended., it’s Hard Place meets Rock.
 
Guess what!! I happen to run "JACKETED bullets" fairly often in my Dragoons!!! Oh my!!!!!! . . .
My barrels are just fine!! Frames are fine, sound and crack free.

I happen to know (and have talked with folks) that Extremely high power rounds have been fired in certain converted revolvers with no ill effects!! Shoot in the revolver of your choice the ammo that is recommended in the pressure limits (factory or reload) they set. There is in no way any reason to pretend you are on the "verge of extinction" if you shoot smokless in a "black powder" revolver with a conversion cyl made for such a revolver!!! Again, cabin fever run amok !!!!

Mike
 
Whughett - So, push come to shove and you were only able to have one or the other, have you formed a preference yet?

Todd.
 
[QUOTE="ApacheCoTodd, post: 11443006, member: 158891"
So, push come to shove and you were only able to have one or the other, have you formed a preference yet?

Todd.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't really matter, Taylor's isn't a manufacturer. Howell / Taylor's same thing 6 shot 45C conversion for Remington.

Mike
 
The marriage of a 19th century revolver design with a 20 century cylinder design may involve more than weather the cylinder can handle the increased pressures. Can the 19th century mechanics handle the recoil involved. Gas cutting of the top strap for instance, pressure against the recoil shield, forces applied to the bolt. Is the steel in a reproduction revolver capable of handling on a day to day basis the high pressures a 45C can be loaded to.

A brass framed 44 caliber can be reduced to trash by continued use of full bore loads. Even modern guns designed for high pressure loads will develop problems and wear over time. Nothing to do with the “pressure vessel’” containing the pressure. What happens when the pressure is released.


There must be a reason the conversion cylinders carry a warning against high pressure rounds.
 
[QUOTE="ApacheCoTodd, post: 11443006, member: 158891"
So, push come to shove and you were only able to have one or the other, have you formed a preference yet?

Todd.

Doesn't really matter, Taylor's isn't a manufacturer. Howell / Taylor's same thing 6 shot 45C conversion for Remington.

Mike[/QUOTE]
Thanks.

I don't know that I want to get a conversion for any of mine but don't know that I don't either and the thread here has been interesting.

I guess I'm more interested in it as an example of transitional guns from makers or on the frontier and having the most realistic as possible would be the most interesting to me.

Too, loading some poofy, smokey, non-socially-acceptable cartridge rounds would be fun.

Todd.
 
Whughett - So, push come to shove and you were only able to have one or the other, have you formed a preference yet?

Todd.
Not sure of your intent. But I’d keep my cap and ball as cap and ball and if still interested in a similar gun using metallics buy a Uberti SAA. Perhaps even one of Rugers Single Action pieces.

The 45C is a fun cartridge loaded with black powder and an attention getter at the range.
 
If you are looking for a decent reproduction of a “conversion” revolver, the Richards conversion in 44 Colt was produced by ASM back in the 20th century. No longer made, unfortunately, but they were a good copy and well built.

Forgot to add, built o the same frame as the 1860, yet proofed for smokeless.
Kevin
 
If you are looking for a decent reproduction of a “conversion” revolver, the Richards conversion in 44 Colt was produced by ASM back in the 20th century. No longer made, unfortunately, but they were a good copy and well built.

Depends if you got good ones or bad ones. Most were bad (barely functional) I have two in the shop now.

Forgot to add, built o the same frame as the 1860, yet proofed for smokeless.
Kevin

The cyl is proofed, not the frame proper. Support structure is more than adequate.
(Hey Kevin !)
Mike
 
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