Ginormous
Member
I call shenanigans on the Bolt Man.
Black Powder Substitutes and Users Deserve Respect
- Thread starter The Bolt Man
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Griff093
Member
Hmmm.....
Nothing I could say would convince anyone of changing their ways... so I won't bother.
Nothing I could say would convince anyone of changing their ways... so I won't bother.
Ginormous
Member
One more and we can beat the OP with brooms. And in keeping with the spirit of the thread, substitutions should be permitted.
Can I get an authority to generate a ruling here?
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Right. Using 777 in a two hundred year old gun is just as authentic as using actual black. Sure it is.
Those who deride the users of substitute, or more properly synthetic, black powders are not speaking of ancient related formularys, but rather the modern synthetics, and they're quite clear in doing so. I've heard people complain about Pyrodex and 777 and Shockey's and American Pioneer, and the generic 'substitutes', and it's pretty clear that they're referring to the contemporary synthetics when they say they are not 'authentic'. Attempting to justify their use by classifying them in the same category as primitive red, white and other recipe powders is simply silly. You're wasting your time and making yourself look like a fool for considering the argument as reasonable.
BTW, I'm not a critic of the synthetic powders; I've used 777 many times and will do so in the future when it's appropriate. And I'll continue to use real black any other time. I don't argue for one side or the other in this fight; I just felt the need to point out what I think is sheer nonsense in terms of justification.
Smokin_Gun
Member
No it ain't :O), you don't get around much do ya?
Smokin_Gun
Member
Italy got Spaghetti from the Chinese, i.e. noodles... and I do think the Chinese had the gunpowder B.R.(Before Rome)
Ahhh but what do I know?
All I can tell ya is that Black Powder Rules!!! o0O(it's the real thing lalala!)O0o
Ahhh but what do I know?
All I can tell ya is that Black Powder Rules!!! o0O(it's the real thing lalala!)O0o
Ginormous
Member
Okay, no one else has the guts to say it, so I will.
Griff . . . your horse . . .there's something wrong with it. Seriously.
Griff . . . your horse . . .there's something wrong with it. Seriously.
mmichalak2
Member
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...and anyone who thinks subs are for DOT regs is WRONG!
The DOT regulations refer to the explosive classifications of compounds, nothing more.
The Federal Government, specifically the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF) classifies these compounds. They have two explosive classifications, Low-Explosives and High-Explosives. Black Powder is classified as Low-Explosives, and you can get a Low-Explosive Users Permit (LEUP) quite simply form the BATF which has MUCH less storage restrictions that High-Explosives.
The problem lies in that MANY states, including IL, don't have separate classifications. They list it ALL under High-Explosives, and thus requires it to be stored in the same fashion as C4 for large quantities. This poses a problem for some.....
The DOT regulations refer to the explosive classifications of compounds, nothing more.
The Federal Government, specifically the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF) classifies these compounds. They have two explosive classifications, Low-Explosives and High-Explosives. Black Powder is classified as Low-Explosives, and you can get a Low-Explosive Users Permit (LEUP) quite simply form the BATF which has MUCH less storage restrictions that High-Explosives.
The problem lies in that MANY states, including IL, don't have separate classifications. They list it ALL under High-Explosives, and thus requires it to be stored in the same fashion as C4 for large quantities. This poses a problem for some.....
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
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Good posts, all of them. But let us get right on down to the rat killing here. I shoot Triple Seven 3 fffg in my revolvers and in my .45 caliber inlines. I get excellent results with it from rattlesnakes right on through bison and elk and moose and I really don't give much of a damn what black powder shooters think about me one way or the other, because I don't waste my time thinking about them one way or the other. They do what they do. I do what I do. We're all having fun....
fordlover35
Member
I totally agree! I think that it is all about makin a lot of smoke and a lot of noise!
fordlover35
Member
oh damn i forgot the smell. I feel like a fool now. nothing like the smell of burnt powder. That is the other thing that I LOVE is the smell.
messerist
Member
OOOOhh that smell!!!
"No it ain't :O), you don't get around much do ya?"
Yeah I do, and probably more than you. I'm quoting mid-eighteenth century sources, using the EXACT SAME oxidizers as manufacturers are today. And as for those who would call me foolish, you have yet to show me where so-called synthetic powders of today are made with anything other than ingredients known and used by various propellant makers for well over a century. There are only so many oxidizers capable of being used as a firearm propellant. Some are too powerful, others too unpredictable. Some are too hygroscopic, while others become unstable when mixed with certain other ingredients, such as the chlorates when combined with sulfur.
Nitrates, perchlorates, carbon and oxidizer stabilizers. Regardless of the century, they remain the same.
And as for 777 being authentic? I bet that the formula is just a modification of something patented over a hundred years ago.
Black powder manufacturing was at a greater height of perfection 150 years ago because that's what everyone used. There were literally hundreds of powder manufacturers and powder types available back then. When smokeless killed off black powder and it's relatives, almost everybody stopped making it. The level of technology attained with black powder and it's substitutes faded away. After all, hardly anybody used black powder anymore. It wasn't until a black powder renaissance occurred in the late 60's and 70's that shooters started using it again. And all of those old patents began to be looked at again. "New" propellants such as Clean Shot aren't just kind of similar to old obsolete 19th century stuff, THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME THING. Clean Shot is basically potassium nitrate and sugar.
Anyone could buy Clean Shot, with a different name, back in 1870. The origin of such propellents are original to the mid-18th century. That is the DEFINTION OF BEING AUTHENTIC for that time period.
I can buy Coca-cola in a shiny aluminum container. It contains corn syrup instead of sugar (and no longer cocain), but it is a turn of the century product/recipe/design.
Yeah I do, and probably more than you. I'm quoting mid-eighteenth century sources, using the EXACT SAME oxidizers as manufacturers are today. And as for those who would call me foolish, you have yet to show me where so-called synthetic powders of today are made with anything other than ingredients known and used by various propellant makers for well over a century. There are only so many oxidizers capable of being used as a firearm propellant. Some are too powerful, others too unpredictable. Some are too hygroscopic, while others become unstable when mixed with certain other ingredients, such as the chlorates when combined with sulfur.
Nitrates, perchlorates, carbon and oxidizer stabilizers. Regardless of the century, they remain the same.
And as for 777 being authentic? I bet that the formula is just a modification of something patented over a hundred years ago.
Black powder manufacturing was at a greater height of perfection 150 years ago because that's what everyone used. There were literally hundreds of powder manufacturers and powder types available back then. When smokeless killed off black powder and it's relatives, almost everybody stopped making it. The level of technology attained with black powder and it's substitutes faded away. After all, hardly anybody used black powder anymore. It wasn't until a black powder renaissance occurred in the late 60's and 70's that shooters started using it again. And all of those old patents began to be looked at again. "New" propellants such as Clean Shot aren't just kind of similar to old obsolete 19th century stuff, THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME THING. Clean Shot is basically potassium nitrate and sugar.
Anyone could buy Clean Shot, with a different name, back in 1870. The origin of such propellents are original to the mid-18th century. That is the DEFINTION OF BEING AUTHENTIC for that time period.
I can buy Coca-cola in a shiny aluminum container. It contains corn syrup instead of sugar (and no longer cocain), but it is a turn of the century product/recipe/design.
Ginormous
Member
Husker, it seems as The Bolt Man no longer has an interest in this thread and is unlikely to ever return to it. Troll indeed.
The Bolt Man The Bolt Man is offline
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Last Activity: March 28th, 2009 03:15 PM
The joke is on those who take this topic as anything more serious than the non-issue it was in the first place. Sheesh.
The Bolt Man The Bolt Man is offline
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Last Activity: March 28th, 2009 03:15 PM
The joke is on those who take this topic as anything more serious than the non-issue it was in the first place. Sheesh.
arcticap
Member
I found the original post to be genuine and sincere. But the last several posts are extremely low road personal attacks.
What relevant facts or opinions is it that the original poster or anyone else needs to respond too that hasn't already been expressed with clarity?
The OP and others said what they said very elequently and without offense and a great majority of repondents have already agreed.
And now the low road of personal attacks has begun by those who choose to not remain high road.
As Judge Judy would say, "Don't try to urinate on my leg and then expect me to believe that it's raining!"
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hey arcticap. the guys a troll. his long ass winded speech about being ridiculed is something that no one has ever said to him or me and iv posted about alternatives to BP. im on this site 24/7 and have yet to see any other post from your friend MR bolt man which leads me to think hes a troll or hes nuts. now its post 70. and still no mr NUTS. after that long BLA BLA BLA speach the least he could do is come and back up his crap. that the nice people hear insulted him for using some other form of the SMOKEY STUFF is BS. your calling me a low individual is BS also and if your looking for a fight just PM me and we will go till your fingers blister and fall off. DONT PI$$ DOWN MY LEG AND TELL ME ITS RAINING EITHER PALL
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Ginormous
Member
rocky branch
Member
With my 1st post I will confess to once actually buying a plastic jug of pyrodex and even loading it into a rifle and pistol.
Never did it again and the plastic jug of that stuff is around in a dark corner somewhere.
Confessing this has freed me. I shall not regress.
Never did it again and the plastic jug of that stuff is around in a dark corner somewhere.
Confessing this has freed me. I shall not regress.
SixShootinSam
member
This whole ordeal has got me curious about these substitutes.
I've never used them before, always used Swiss myself, but I bought some Hodgdon triple seven yesterday to see what all the fuss is about.
Personally I don't care if it's holy black or 777 as long as I'm having a good time at the range that's all that matters.
I've never used them before, always used Swiss myself, but I bought some Hodgdon triple seven yesterday to see what all the fuss is about.
Personally I don't care if it's holy black or 777 as long as I'm having a good time at the range that's all that matters.
"You really need to get a hobby or something. "
Apparently I already have one. It's explaining to individuals offering opinion as fact how and why they are wrong.
Now please tell me how stupid I am, maybe insult my genetic makeup or call my mother a name. Your personal attacks only prove that you have nothing other than unfounded personal opinion to back up your flights of fancy.
Apparently I already have one. It's explaining to individuals offering opinion as fact how and why they are wrong.
Now please tell me how stupid I am, maybe insult my genetic makeup or call my mother a name. Your personal attacks only prove that you have nothing other than unfounded personal opinion to back up your flights of fancy.
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