Black Powder vs Pyrodex vs Triple 777 - Least corrosive?

[CraigC]

I'm done because you will not answer a basic question. No, that's not what I claimed. I claimed that 777 is less corrosive than blackpowder and less corrosive than the residue from percussion caps. You say the chemicals present are all corrosive. I agree. I asked you "in what quantity and does it matter?". I also asked "to what degree and what role do the other components play?". You are either unwilling or incapable of answering these questions. So either the quantity of these chemicals produced is the same or it isn't. That either affects the level or rapidity of corrosion, or it doesn't.

I also asked for you to explain why corrosion happens more rapidly and to a greater extent where percussion cap fouling is present, why Pyrodex has such a terrible reputation, or why corrosion happens more quickly with blackpowder than with 777.

No, you just want us all to swallow the same pill you did and without question, then act like a horse's ass when we do not.

All questions still unanswered by the resident "science guy". Why is that? Why can't you answer these basic questions?

 

[DocRock]

All questions still unanswered by the resident "science guy". Why is that? Why can't you answer these basic questions?

Craig, it is by now eminently clear that you have nothing to offer here and are engaged in a rather disappointing personal vendetta. The answer to the OP's question is that they are all corrosive, and that corrosion can be avoided by the use of hot soapy water in a timely manner.

You cannot say which is more or less corrosive because you cannot account for all the variables at play. That is a simple fact.

 

[Jim Watson]

The corrosive salts of percussion caps are chiefly potassium perchlorate. The principle corrosive salt residue of Triple7 is potassium perchlorate.

You keep saying that, but it isn't so.
Potassium perchlorate is a reactant in fake powders; potassium chlorate is a reactive constituent of "corrosive" primer mix. They are consumed when the shot is fired. The RESIDUE is potassium chloride, which is hygroscopic and corrosive once it has started to dissolve in a bit of humidity.

That is why Hodgdon is able to advertise 777 as cleaning with clear water; the water DISSOLVES the potassium chloride and washes it away. There is no "neutralization" going on. The one can of 777 I tried in revolver cartridges did indeed clean with water. And not a lot of water, I did not have to wash my gun. Soggy brush and patch inside, damp rag outside, dry and oil.

Pyrodex is probably more difficult to manage, even though similar in chemistry. To get Pyrodex accepted by the NMLRA, Hodgdon had to formulate it for at least some smoke and fouling, requiring cleaning.

 

[DocRock]

If people can’t read, it’s hard to have a discussion. Page 4 of 16.

https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=926574

 

[MatrixReality]

There is a difference between a joke and an insult my friend, and the “lol” usually means it was intended to be humor. You lost your funny bone?

 

[arcticap]

Still at it

You made yourself look silly over not knowing that the corrosive salt in both caps and Triple 7 were the same and not having read the
material you were criticizing that told you that fact, then, being unwilling to admit that. And yet you keep digging the hole.

The previous discussion does mention corrosive military primers which doesn't seem to have anything in common with modern percussion caps that are made from lead styphnate.
I understand their connection with sub powders, but not with a black powder cleaning regimen.
Is potassium chlorate the only by-product of corrosive military primers?
They may cause a different degree or rate of corrosion than the individual sub, powders as well.
I wonder how much potassium chlorate each primer produces and how does the number of shots affect the rate of corrosion?

The previous thread states:

Potassium chlorate/perchlorate is the principle corrosive agent in ammunition with "corrosive primers" and both leave potassium chloride salts in the rifle after shooting. Is there anyone who would suggest not immediately cleaning a rifle after shooting ammunition with corrosive primers?

The decomposition of lead styphnate produces hazardous gas/vapors of oxides of lead and oxides of nitrogen --->>> https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Lead-styphnate#section=Decomposition

 

[DocRock]

The previous discussion does mention corrosive military primers which doesn't seem to have anything in common with modern percussion caps that are made from lead styphnate.
I understand their connection with sub powders, but not with a black powder cleaning regimen.
Is potassium chlorate the only by-product of corrosive military primers?
They may cause a different degree or rate of corrosion than the individual sub, powders as well.

The previous thread states:



The decomposition of lead styphnate produces hazardous gas/vapors of oxides of lead and oxides of nitrogen --->>> https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Lead-styphnate#section=Decomposition

Corrosive primers contain potassium perchlorate. That is why they are "corrosive". Potassium Perchlorate is also found in Triple 7 (page 4 of 16 in document presented above), yielding the same corrosive salts.

Potassium Perchloarate also is an oxidizer in the sense that it exothermically (generates heat) transfers oxygen to combustible materials, greatly increasing their rate of combustion relative to that in air.



Potassium Perchlorate


The problem with these primer components is that they will create chloride salts that attract water and eventually cause corrosion. These primers are referred to as Corrosive Primers and still exist in older or some surplus military ammunition.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/07/19/primer-on-primers/



Do you disagree with evidence presented here https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=926574 that all BP and substitutes yield corrosive salts ?

Do you disagree that the timely and effective cleaning of firearms in which BP and its substitutes have been fired will eliminate the risk of corrosion from these salts?

 

[Jim Watson]

Is potassium chlorate the only by-product of corrosive military primers?

That is potassium CHLORIDE, potassium chlorate is the oxidizer in the priming compound and it is "burnt" up. And potassium chloride is not the only byproduct of shooting potassium chlorate primers, but it is the corrosive actor.

Caps and primers are largely non-corrosive these days, but the point is the fake powders contain chlorine compounds that act similarly, even though we are getting some erroneous terminology.

Corrosive primers contain potassium perchlorate.

Nope. 777 does, but "corrosive primers" as used by the US Army until the 1950s were made with potassium chlorate. The end result is the same but the starting materials are not.

 

[rodwha]

I have Pyrodex, Triple 7, and Olde Eynsford but no scrap steel (everything I found is galvanized), though I think I’ll ask around. If one were to test the corrosive nature of these powders what would one do to ensure a fair comparison without tainting the outcome? I figured I might try cleaned dried steel and oiled with a Ballistol wipe to see how a light film might do to hinder corrosion. I’d like for the results to have as little for anyone to complain about, and one won’t be a stranger’s uncle’s cousin’s friend’s long lost girlfriend or some such nonsense to disregard the results.

 

[DocRock]

The point and the only point that I have made has been that all black powder and its substitutes produce compounds that are hygroscopic and corrosive and that, in all cases, the timely cleaning of the firearm with hot soapy water eliminates the risk of corrosion from those compounds.

If you disagree with that fact, make a case backed by evidence.

If you don't disagree with that fact, then what is your point?

 

[CraigC]

No one here has EVER disagreed with that fact. Period. The question is and always has been, how corrosive are they relative to each other. The truth, the reason why you have no answered my questions is that you do not have an answers. This whole mess has been you tap dancing around the fact that you do not know.

 

[DocRock]

No one here has EVER disagreed with that fact. Period. The question is and always has been, how corrosive are they relative to each other. The truth, the reason why you have no answered my questions is that you do not have an answers. This whole mess has been you tap dancing around the fact that you do not know.

We know you are pointless, Craig. YOu made yourself look silly and you just cant let it go.

I know and I have made it clear, repeadly, that there is no evidence to provide us with an understanding of relative corrosiveness because of all the variables that cannot be accounted for.

 

[Jim Watson]

Hot soapy water is a sufficient cleaner for black powder and fakes but it is not necessary. I have not washed a gun fired with BP, 777, or the old Black Mag 3.
I started out with Mike Venturino's diluted Windex and later diluted M-Pro 7.
Water is what is needed to dissolve the chlorides from the fakes and the carbonates and sulfite from black but it doesn't take a lot.

 

[Captain*kirk]

Interesting thread. However, instead of debating endlessly about which powder is more corrosive, and burn tests on bare metal, how about trying this;
Get 3 pieces of metal and do the burn test using whichever powders you choose. Then, immediately clean them with warm, soapy water, followed by a thorough oiling, and see which one is corroded in the morning.
My guess would be...none.

 

[MatrixReality]

Old timers used to pee down the barrels of those flintlocks and percussion ML’s back in the day. They did it in a pinch when water had to be preserved in a dry environment. I would like to get some feedback from those unscrupulous souls that might try this! Anyone?

 

[rodwha]

We know you are pointless, Craig. YOu made yourself look silly and you just cant let it go.

I know and I have made it clear, repeadly, that there is no evidence to provide us with an understanding of relative corrosiveness because of all the variables that cannot be accounted for.

Actually it’s your behavior that’s been, well, I wouldn’t call it silly, more like belligerent and uncouth. The insistence that anyone claimed any substitute isn’t corrosive at all might be called silly since no one has claimed such unless I missed it. I even stated that while the T7 plate didn’t need a wire brush like the others it still isn’t pristine.

 

[rodwha]

Interesting thread. However, instead of debating endlessly about which powder is more corrosive, and burn tests on bare metal, how about trying this;
Get 3 pieces of metal and do the burn test using whichever powders you choose. Then, immediately clean them with warm, soapy water, followed by a thorough oiling, and see which one is corroded in the morning.
My guess would be...none.

That wouldn’t answer the OPs question though...

 

[rodwha]

Old timers used to pee down the barrels of those flintlocks and percussion ML’s back in the day. They did it in a pinch when water had to be preserved in a dry environment. I would like to get some feedback from those unscrupulous souls that might try this! Anyone?

I will. Who will offer up their muzzleloader?

 

[red rick]

I wonder who can pee further , Doc or Craig ?

 

[arcticap]

Do you disagree with evidence presented here https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=926574 that all BP and substitutes yield corrosive salts ?

Do you disagree that the timely and effective cleaning of firearms in which BP and its substitutes have been fired will eliminate the risk of corrosion from these salts?

I don't disagree that all of the sub's contain the potassium perchlorate that can cause corrosion.

The point and the only point that I have made has been that all black powder and its substitutes produce compounds that are hygroscopic and corrosive and that, in all cases, the timely cleaning of the firearm with hot soapy water eliminates the risk of corrosion from those compounds.

If you disagree with that fact, make a case backed by evidence.

If you don't disagree with that fact, then what is your point?

There is this 1st hand eyewitness testimony from Toby Bridges.
He states:

".... Just a month or so before this was written, I completed a test conducted with two .50 caliber No. 209 primer ignition in-line rifles, a Traditions Vortek StrikerFire LDR and a CVA Accura V2 LR, to see how many rounds could be fired before the bores had to be cleaned to maintain accuracy. This test began in January 2017.
I concluded the test on January 15, 2018. During basically that one year period, the Traditions rifle had 482 rounds fired through it … the CVA rifle had logged 493 shots during the same period. Neither of these rifles had a single cleaning patch pushed through the bore, and both were still consistently producing 1- to 1 ½-inch hundred yard groups. Both rifles cleaned up with a couple of Blackhorn 209 Solvent dampened patches … a few dozen strokes with a .50 caliber bronze wire bore brush … a couple of more solvent dampened patches … a dry patch … and a lightly lubed patch. Both bores looked like new. (Note: Primer carbon fouling was cleaned from the breech plugs every 150 shots.)....."

Our Side of the Blackhorn 209 Story by Toby Bridge --->>> http://namlhunt.com/bh209anniversary.html

*Note the warnings on the BH 209 label, always clean your gun as soon as possible after using BH 209 powder.

We can only speculate about how this can be true.
Perhaps there's a type of rust inhibitor that's built into the BH 209 powder, one which leaves an oil based film on the interior of the bore.
Maybe that's why BH 209 requires a gun solvent to clean it.

It could be similar to how the ingredients in stainless steel react with oxygen to create a stable protective film that resists corrosion.
This page explains how the film which is only a few atomic particles thick greatly helps stainless steel to resist corrosion. --->>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-doesnt-stainless-stee/#:~:text=Stainless steel remains stainless, or,amounts of nickel and molybdenum.

 

[44 Dave]

I have some old caps and ammo that is most likely primed with mercury fulminate, now that is corrosive.
I win !!!

 

[Jim Watson]

Ah, Blackhorn 209, the new kid on the block.
Is there any information as to its composition?
Otherwise "maybe maybe."

Mercury fulminate in mixes not containing potassium chlorate does NOT leave residue corrosive to steel. One early attempt at noncorrosive priming was largely Mercury fulminate. The elemental Mercury rotted your brass but the ammo companies were not supportive of handloading in those days.

 

[CraigC]

We know you are pointless, Craig. YOu made yourself look silly and you just cant let it go.

I know and I have made it clear, repeadly, that there is no evidence to provide us with an understanding of relative corrosiveness because of all the variables that cannot be accounted for.

So in a nutshell, the evidence you keep beating us over the head with does not refute what I said. Thanks. Was that so hard?

 

[Captain*kirk]

That wouldn’t answer the OPs question though...

The original question would be moot if there were no levels of corrosion damage to compare...

 

[DocRock]

I don't disagree that all of the sub's contain the potassium perchlorate that can cause corrosion.



There is this 1st hand eyewitness testimony from Toby Bridges.
He states:

".... Just a month or so before this was written, I completed a test conducted with two .50 caliber No. 209 primer ignition in-line rifles, a Traditions Vortek StrikerFire LDR and a CVA Accura V2 LR, to see how many rounds could be fired before the bores had to be cleaned to maintain accuracy. This test began in January 2017.
I concluded the test on January 15, 2018. During basically that one year period, the Traditions rifle had 482 rounds fired through it … the CVA rifle had logged 493 shots during the same period. Neither of these rifles had a single cleaning patch pushed through the bore, and both were still consistently producing 1- to 1 ½-inch hundred yard groups. Both rifles cleaned up with a couple of Blackhorn 209 Solvent dampened patches … a few dozen strokes with a .50 caliber bronze wire bore brush … a couple of more solvent dampened patches … a dry patch … and a lightly lubed patch. Both bores looked like new. (Note: Primer carbon fouling was cleaned from the breech plugs every 150 shots.)....."

Our Side of the Blackhorn 209 Story by Toby Bridge --->>> http://namlhunt.com/bh209anniversary.html

*Note the warnings on the BH 209 label, always clean your gun as soon as possible after using BH 209 powder.

We can only speculate about how this can be true.
Perhaps there's a type of rust inhibitor that's built-in to the BH 209 powder, one which leaves an oil based film on the interior of the bore.
Maybe that's why BH 209 requires a gun solvent to clean it.

It could be similar to how the ingredients in stainless steel react with oxygen to create a stable protective film that resists corrosion.
This page explains how the film which is only a few atomic particles thick greatly helps stainless steel to resist corrosion. --->>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-doesnt-stainless-stee/#:~:text=Stainless steel remains stainless, or,amounts of nickel and molybdenum.

1) That's not evidence. It's anecdote.
2) It's anecdote about one substitute powder under a set of completely uncontrolled variables.

Again. Page 4, Table 1. BH209 contains Potassium Perchlorate, as do Pyrodex and Triple 7.

https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=926574

For more information on the corrosive nature of Potassium Perchlorate:

"According to the original Pyrodex patent, the formula that appears to be the propellant composition contains 17 parts of potassium perchlorate. When the powder burns, the potassium perchlorate gives up its oxygen, leaving potassium chloride. This potassium chloride will be found as tiny crystals scattered over the surfaces of the bore after the projectile exits the muzzle."

https://camp22.org/black-powder-pages/barrel-fouling-black-powder-vs-substitutes

For more information than you want, confirming the corrosive effect of potassium chloride on steel:

https://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/33625/InTech-Corrosive_effects_of_chlorides_on_metals.pdf


All the subs and black powder leave corrosive salts after firing. I have supported that fact with evidence. If you disagree with that fact, show some evidence to support the claim that they don't.