Blackpowder Lever guns?

[Afy]

Thinking of getting one.....

So how does one reload the cartridges? Or do you just use modern ammo?

Have always wanted a 44 ... so what can I learn and where?

Wanted a Sharps as well... but the ammo is an unbelievable 178 Euros or $234 USD for 20... I cant affoard that....

 

[Jim Watson]

Euros, eh?
Uberti in Italy makes replica 1860 Henry, 1866 and 1873 Winchester rifles in .44-40 (.44 WCF, Winchester Center Fire) that are strong enough for standard factory loads with smokeless powder. Or you can load black powder for them, if available in your location. Try to get the book, 'Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West' available direct from the author at:
http://www.ycsi.net/users/mlventurino/
or check with Amazon. It will tell you a lot more than I can put in an internet post.

I cannot afford to buy black powder ammunition for my 1885 Winchester Single Shot, either, but I can cast the bullets and load the cartridges.
Is handloading legal for you?

 

[hildo]

In the long run, reloading is more economical

Hi Afy. Start thinking about reloading. Everybody does it, and for good reasons too. It's much more cost effective.
Guess the caliber of the Sharps is 45-70 government, or maybe 45/90?
I've just bought a Swedish 1873 Rolling Block rifle, which was converted to 50/70. I'm new in the cartridge world as well but have learned a bit.
The brass (bertram cases) for the 50/70 is available in my local gunstore for 90 euro's for 20 pieces , outrages prices I think, since they are just 45$ in the US.
45/70 cases are lower in price.
Track of the wolf offers the Starline brand 45/70 from 0.31 to 0.39 $ cents a piece, depending on how much you buy, 0.80 to 0.69 $ cents for the 45/90 and 0.80 to 0.92 $ cents for 50/70 Starline cases.
Guess I will try to order some 50/70 myself from them, have to see how difficult it is with the law here, but know it is possible. No way I am going to pay 90 Euro (110/120 US$!!) for 20 Bertram cases.
Futhermore, guess you may want to buy yourself a bullet mold for the right caliber, a press, some dies and maybe some other stuff as well.
You will have to invest some (I will next week!) for reloading cartridges but it will be cheaper in the long run.

Muzzleloaders are easier, that's for sure

 

[Steve499]

Hildo, that Swedish rollong block you have was probably originally chambered for the 12.7x44R round. Do you know much about that round's availibility? I may have a chance to get one of those still in the original chambering and am starting to try to learn if I want to do it or not.

Thanks, Steve

 

[hildo]

Steve,
You are correct. As far as I know all Swedish (& Norwegian) Rolling Blocks were cambered for the 12.7x44R round. Note that this is a rimfire case. The R in de case designation means rimfire although today most of these rifles were converted for civilian use to centerfire. If you observe the breechblock closely you will see the previous hole that is welded shut and now the centerfire pin is in the middle. If the gun does not have a centerfire pin it should still fire the original rimfire case.
I do not know if that is still available.
If it is already centerfire you should use the 12.7x44R case (the designation still says R = rimfire although in fact is a centerfire case).
The bullets to use is .50" minie 360 grains (which comes very close to the original 340 grain or so bullet that was used), This Minie works very well from experiences of shooters here in Holland. A molding block is available from Lee Precision.
Cases are made by Bertram (maybe others as well), a company located in Australia, but should be available through a specialized gundealer. Maybe on special order, don't know.
Buy some extra when you do and you can shoot the rest of your life. These Swedisch rolling blocks are excellent quality (Don't underestimate them Swedes! Just think Volvo. The styling is not too great but the quality is). Some even say here that they are better than the original Remingtons. I don't know.

In fact the 50/70 government and the 12.7x44R cases are not that much different.
Take a look at this:

50/70 cartrige dimensions
.565" = 14.35mm bottom of case.
.535" = 13.59mm (.536") top of case.
1.75" = 44.45mm (1.762") overall length of case.
2.25" = 57.15mm overall length of round.
.450 grain bullet weight.
.515" bullet diameter.
12.7x44R cartrige dimensions
.13.09mm bottom of case. (= 0.4mm smaller than 50/70 case)
13.59mm top of case. (= identical to .535" of the 50/70 case)
44mm overall length of case. (= 0.45mm shorter than 50/70 case)
Conclusion
The 12.7x44R and the 50/70 cases are almost identical, but not quite.
The 12.7x44R is 0.4mm smaller in diameter, the neck is identical and the overall length is just a fraction, 0.45mm, shorter.
This would mean a 12.7x44R could be used (although not quite nice) in a 50/70 cambered rifle.
But a 50/70 would not fit a 12.7x44R cambered rifle since the camber is just a bit smaller, apart from the 450 grain (= longer) bullet that is used in the original 50/70 round.

If you really want to convert to a 50/70 case & larger bullet this can be done fairly easy by a qualified gunsmith. My rifle had the barrel freebored to make some extra space for the longer bullet. I don't know anybody with a 50/70 cambered rifle to testfit that round, so I made a candlewax print of the camber and pushed a chocolate easter egg through the barrel to slug it. I'm quite positve that it is in fact chambered for the 50/70 round at some time in history.
I would not touch an original Swedisch Rolling Block. These are very well made historical guns and I would leave it original.

I'd say.. Go for it! The Rolling Block rifles are underestimated in the States. Great guns but Remington just sold 30.000 in the States at that time. The Sprinfield rifle was favoured for the US army since Springfield was government ownership and Remington was a private company.
I believe over a million were shipped overseas to foreign army's all over the world (Including Vatican City in Italy where the Pope's army had Rolling Blocks). These figures do not even include the Rolling blocks that were made under licency. In Sweden alone 100.000 to 120.000 were made by Carl Gustaf and 80.000 were made by Husqvarna. Howabout that!

 

[DixieTexian]

I you hand load, you can load any lever gun with black powder.

 

[Afy]

Ok so how do you reload a BP cartridge? Simmillar to Smokeless.... dont know if I can make that much of an investment... (Smokeless gear).

 

[hildo]

Afy, you will always need equipment to reload. BP and smokeless is basicly the same. Lot's of to choose from too.
Talk to experienced members of your shooting club (I do). Good change they will be happy to learn you to reload, tell you what to use and what not in your particular reloading needs. Talk to as many people as possible, different people, different opinions. That should give you the possibility to pick or combine what's best for you personally.
They should also be able to tell you the approximate costs involved.
Almost all people at my shooting club reload because the investment will pay itself back and keep your shooting affordable, especially with more 'exotic' calibers.

 

[Steve499]

Wow, Hildo, thanks! All I needed to know! Now I just have to figure out if it is a rimfire or has been converted to centerfire.


Steve

 

[oneshooter]

BP and Brass

Just remember that the residue from the Holy Black is corrosive to your brass. Best way I have found is to have a container of soapy water, use a few drops of liquid dishwashing soap, beside your shooting bench. As you shoot simply drop the empty case into the water. When you get home, decap and return to the container with fresh soapy water, shake the container vigorusly. Drain and fill with hot water to rinse. If you have a tumbler, decap and dry the cases, and run them through the tumbler.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

 

[Derby FALs]

Ballistol and water for BP clean up.