First blackpowder rifle - a few questions

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I'm thinking of getting myself a blackpowder rifle for Christmas. My experience with blackpowder shooting is limited to romantic stories in old movies and books. In other words, I don't have a clue.

1: I've sort of narrowed my search down to the Lyman Great Plains Rifle. Anything wrong with this one?

2: Is there any particular problem with starting out on a flintlock rifle? I think I want the flint version because I want to do it like the real men had to do it. Caplock just seems too "modern", almost like cheating.

3: .50 or .54? My plans include target shooting only, and I figure I can buy a new barrel later if I need to. So does it really matter what caliber?

4: Lyman sells their rifle in a kit. How hard are the kits to complete? The thought of a flintlock musket coming off an assembly rifle just seems wrong to me. So a kit, which requires a little hand finishing, appeals more. But only f it's within my ability to safely complete...

Thanks y'all!

 

[Hobie]

The Lyman GPR is one of the great values in muzzleloading. Believe me, start with a caplock. Look on it as a learning experience. If you like muzzleloading you can get a GOOD flintlock later. I'd suggest the .54. While you can load it down you can't load the .50 up. The .54 is good for everything. However, you just want to shoot targets. The .50 will do. I don't know about your abilities so I'd recommend the completed gun.

 

[gremlin_bros]

50 vs 54

i currently have a 54 cal. hawkin from cva i love it but it is hard to find 54 ball or mini ball or maxi ball so what to do well i went out and bought a mold from lee its a R.E.A.L. mold stands for riffiling engraved at loading. i find it quite relaxing to melt and pour my own so take it for what its worth its just my two cents worth.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Anyone have some thoughts? I'd love to hear from more folks.

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but it'd be a shame to make the same mistakes everyone else has made, simply because I didn't know any better.

Anyone?

 

[P-32]

I think the TC Hawken is the way to go but I don't think there is enough savings to buy it in kit form. I too would go with the cap as you will find out soon enough they can have problems too like in the old days. I have a TC Hawken in 54. 54 is harder to find but I like it.

 

[DEKE39]

Take the .50. It's lighter, and unless you are shooting Buffalo...then get the .54. That 54 round is like throwing a truck down range. I killed a Buffalo with a 45 cal longrifle with 110 grains of 2FG, shot it over the hump and into the back of the neck. He dropped in his tracks. Shot placement is key, and you need to start off with a fast ignition. we don't wan't half dead deer or Buffalo running around out there. First thing you should do is consider the caplock. If you think flint is manley, then maybe you'll want to buy a wheel lock matchlock rifle
First thing to do is find a Thompson Hawken percussion in the newspaper or a "trader paper". Don't worry about the barrel, even if you buy a new one...take it out of the hooked breech and use it for some rebar in concrete. Buy a green mountain barrel for patch and roundball say 32" 11/16 across the lands, this is why you want to pick up the .50 cal. as inexpensive as possible start out the first two patches, loaded with the powder, ball and patch. Put some valve grinding (lapping compound on the patch. Stuff it down the barrel and shoot like you normally would. TWO ROUNDS ONLY. That will polish and remove any small burrs. Then clean it out with a good solvent, and use quality cloth and a good patch lube and preservative.

 

[stevelyn]

I have a .54 caliber Lyman caplock GPR. It's probably the best quality production rifle available without going the custom route.

Nothing wrong with getting a flinter as long as you have a reliable supply of black powder. I can't get bp out here in Aleutian Hell so I have to use substitutes. I started on H 777 and like it so I'm not likely to change propellents.

Since your grid coordinates are IN, a .50 would be adaquate for anything you need to use it on down there. It seems like accessories for .50s are more commonly available than for other calibers. Plus with a .50 you can still use either 2F or 3F for your main charge.

I bought my rifle already assembled. Unless you are talented at building guns and doing stock work, I wouldn't recommend the kit. The few dollars you save on the kit aren't worth the aggravation.

 

[Steve499]

Just a thought, Dixie has a .50 cal. "poor boy" mountain rifle which you can convert from percussion to flint and back. I bought that rifle in .32 several years ago. The drum and nipple screws out, the percussion lock plate comes off, then you screw a vented plug in the drum hole and put the flintlock lock plate on and you're done. Mine is quite accurate in the percussion configuration. Even though the rifle is the same, it doesn't shoot as good when I put the flinch lock... er.. flintlock on it.

Steve

 

[Iggy]

" .54 caliber Lyman caplock GPR. It's probably the best quality production rifle available without going the custom route."

I second the motion!!!

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Thanks for all the help so far. These forums have been incredibly helpful. Perhaps too helpful...

Lots of people recomend cap lock over flint lock, because flint locks are finicky and unreliable.

But I guess finicky and unreliable is what I want, if that's the way they actually operated back when my home state was settled. These folks lived and died on their riflecraft, and I wanna know what riflecraft was really like back then. I think...

I've done some more research, and I've confused myself further. It seems the Lyman Great Plains rifle is a Hawken style gun. The Hawken rifles were used for the westward exploration of land west of the Mississippi, the great plains and rocky mountains and so forth. Right?

That's not quite what I want.

I want the sort of gun settlers used in the very late 1700 and early 1800s, when whites first started floating down the Ohio River to settle in Kentucky, souther Ohio and souther Indiana. I want the kind of rifle that was carried through the Cumberland Gap, into the midwest. The Hawken rifes are from the wrong period. Right?

What kind of rifle is correct for an early midwestern settler? A Pennsylvania rifle, maybe? Or a Kentucky rifle? What's the difference between a PA and a KY rifle?

Or is a northwest trade gun what these settlers used? Trade guns were smoothbore, right? Were there ever trade guns with rifled bores? (Lyman makes a "Trade Rifle", but it doesn't look much like the northwest trade guns I've seen in my research. )

Arrggg... This has proven to be far more effort than I expected. I just wanted to see what shooting was like back when my forefathers moved here. Should I give up and spend my Christmas bonus on a Glock or something instead?

 

[Steve499]

I'm not an authority but my sense is that a Pennsylvania rifle was an evolution from the German Jaeger rifles and was largely produced in Pennsylvania. They were smaller bored than the Jaegers and had a longer barrel.Many, (maybe most) were full stocked but I have seen some examples with half stocks much like a Hawken. The settlers carried their Pennsylvania rifles into Kentucky where they were copied by newly arrived gun makers, often without the embellishment common on the Pennsylvania rifle. I don't think you would be incorrect for the period you want with either one. The long hunters like Daniel Boone and Simon Kenton most surely used that type of rifle. When later settlers arrived they often had smoothbores much like the trade gun, sometimes in addition to a rifle, sometimes not. The trade gun was more versatile in that it could be charged with either shot or a single ball which made that type of firearm attractive to a settler who intended to farm and use his firearm as an all-purpose tool.
If you are interested in reading a fascinating true account of the settlement of the frontier, mostly centered around Simon Kenton in Kentucky, THE FRONTIERSMEN by Allen W. Eckert is a must read.

Steve

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Thanks, Steve. That's exactly what I wanted to know. Your comments are extremely helpful.

Alan Eckert's books bear 80% of the guilt for making me want this rifle. Simon Kenton, especially, is reported to have pulled off of some pretty amazing feats with a muzzleloader (load, aim, fire and reload while running full-seed, for instance). I doubt I can match that performance, but can I shoot well enough to survive the way they did, using their tools?

I want to know firsthand just how difficult it really was to do what they had to do every day. Those guys were just plain cool.

 

[Steve499]

If you get your flintlock and learn to hit with it, you can hit with ANYTHING. The delay between trigger pull and ignition of the main charge is long enough, even with the fastest flintlock, for me to usually manage to move the sights somewhere other than the target. I find them lots of fun to play with but marvel at the sand a man had to have to wager his very life on his flintlock when I know how finicky they can be. The knowledge of the fate that befell captives of the Shawnees would have probably kept me in Pliladelphia if all I had was a flintlock. Heck, I probably wouldn't have had the courage to do what they did even if I could have taken an M1-A!

Steve

 

[Thefabulousfink]

As far as kits go, Traditions and Lymanns kits are not that hard. If you are able to sand wood and use a small chisel to remove small amounts of wood so that the furniture will fit properly, building a gun that will shoot is not that hard. Building a gun that looks good while shooting is all a maner of your skill.

I built a traditions trapper pistol from a kit when I was 16 and it works great, not the work of art that some builders produce, but I am happy with it.

As far as caps vs flintlock, follow your heart. If all you want it for is target shooting, then it doesn't matter if the gun fails to fire a few(hundred) times while you figure it out. Flintlock is not that much harder to shoot, it just takes a little more knowledge.

Almost everything you need to know about flintlock shooting can be found on this website:
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html

 

[4v50 Gary]

If you're looking for a flintlock smokepole for shooting fun, the Lyman GPR is fine. I've got one myself (left hand, 50 cal) and it shoots like a dream. It's a good starter that is reasonably priced and easy to use. It has a hooked breach which makes the barrel easy to dismount for cleaning - something you won't find on the Dixie Poorboy (Southern Rifle) or the Jaeger. Consider that advantage when you have to clean the gun. That's exactly why I went with Lyman and it's pretty close to what a Mountain Man Rifle would be like (except it's much lighter and smaller).

Now, if you're into reenacting, go with the period and then find a rifle that suits that period and persona. FWIW, I'm not a reenactor (but the Monty Python type battle reenactments would be worthwhile seeing) but a shooter.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

More good info. Thanks again, everyone.

 

[smokemaker]

Nothing wrong with the GPR, and nothing at all wrong with the .54 round ball. My first ML was a GPR in .54, and it's still one of my favorites. I agree with what someone else said, about how you can load the .54 down, but you can't load the .50 up. The .54 is not that big (Certainly no "truck" going downrange... try a 4 bore for that sensation), and it doesn't kick as bad as a 30-06 with 165 grainers. Also, buy a new gun. If you are new to ML's, you don't need to be buying one of "these" guns and throwing barrels away and buying one of "those" barrels and putting it on. At this point, buy a quality rifle and learn it. Once you know what's what, then start playing with things. The GPR is accurate enough out of the box. If you are interested in a Hawken style rifle, the GPR is more a hawken than T/C's own "hawken" is.

 

[skinwalker]

first rifle

the great plains is a fine rifle , nicely priced and accurate, another good choice would be an austen & halleck mountain rifle, or if you`d like an eastern style dixie`s tennessee mountain rifle ! the tennessee comes in a convertible style . flint , and percussion . just change the lock and switch the drum and nipple with the touch hole liner ! and if you wont reliable , cheap , and historically accurrate there are the hokins & allen under hammer`s ! wichever choice you make , be carefull , take it slow , and have fun !

 

[BigG]

The delay between trigger pull and ignition of the main charge is long enough, even with the fastest flintlock, for me to usually manage to move the sights somewhere other than the target. I find them lots of fun to play with but marvel at the sand a man had to have to wager his very life on his flintlock when I know how finicky they can be. The knowledge of the fate that befell captives of the Shawnees would have probably kept me in Pliladelphia if all I had was a flintlock.

I think the foregoing is a common opinion but would like to point out the flintlock was state of the art for 200 or 250 years so there were plenty of them out there and they must have been useful or somebody would have come up with a replacement. The delay in a qood quality flintlock is scarely more than a cartridge rifle in my experience. Even a T/C with sawn flints can approach 100% reliability if loaded and cared for properly. They are more finicky than caplock or cartridge, but more rewarding, too. Imho.