Blackwater down

[TX1911fan]

I just read the story of the Blackwater security consultants being killed when their helicopter went down. Such a tragedy. It just makes me sick. I am interested, as a lawyer, how Blackwater handles that liability. Do they have next of kin sign releases due to the dangerous work conditions, or do they just risk wrongful death suits by the spouse, kids or parents? Anyone know? Anyone have a copy of a Blackwater Contractor agreement?

Executed after a crash is just terrible.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070124/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_070124140046

 

[Travis McGee]

God Bless them.

 

[Manedwolf]

I'm more concerned with the 12 volunteer military personnel who died when THEIR helicopter went down the day before, to be honest.

A U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter went down Saturday northeast of Baghdad, killing all 12 service members on board. The American military in Baghdad has refused to confirm a report by a
Pentagon official that debris at the crash site indicated the helicopter was shot out of the air by a surface-to-air missile.

Dying in the service of one's country means more than dying for a paycheck.

If mercenaries take that kind of job for that kind of cash, they accept that they're likely to be killed. Free will. They can decline at any time.

The troops are ordered into harm's way, therefore, I have more sympathy for them. Mercs are mercs. Yeah, it's tragic, but they took the risk for high pay.

And no, I really don't like Blackwater mercenaries. Having friends in the New Orleans area who were threatened by members of their unconstitutional "patrols" tends to have that effect.

 

[bthest86]

Well I don't think its anyone's place to say what they "died for" or "fought for" since only they know that.

Yes they get payed some damn good money to do their job and probably wouldn't do it if they didn't get that money. Yes, they are not forced to go to Iraq by the government. But same can be said for many police officers who can quit anytime they like. Yes they probably know how dangerous Iraq is before they go but so should anyone joining the military.

But then again how many soldiers would do the same jobs if the government decided that they weren't going to pay them anymore?

 

[Manedwolf]

Soldiers get paid way too little as is.

And if someone really wanted to serve their COUNTRY, the re-up age is so high that they, if a veteran, could just re-enlist and serve again.

Working as a merc for whomever pays, be it our government, a corporation, or some other government, (like they only work for the US government?) means you're serving your wallet, not your country first. At least to me. And if you do that, if it's high risk, oh well.

Soldiers killed in the line of duty deserve a state funeral. I don't hold mercenaries in the same regard, sorry. It was their choice to go for the money/adrenaline/whatever with each mission.

 

[Biker]

Manedwolf...

Blackwater boys were involved with the NOLA weapons seizures?

Biker

 

[armoredman]

Mercs are what they are, mercenaries. I wish they would start calling them that in the media, this whole "security contractor" makes it sound like we hired Pinkerton Security.

 

[Manedwolf]

No, they weren't involved with the weapons seizures, but a number were patrolling areas including the French Quarter, and some, apparently, believed they were still in Baghdad and could pull attitude crap, shout, use profanity and threaten American civilians with weapons in an American city. Which is what happened.

And add to that that these wholly privately owned CIVILIAN corporation "contractors" somehow manage to be exempt from the 86 machine gun import ban, despite not being military or law enforcement, and I really don't like the situation at all.

 

[Biker]

Manedwolf...

Well then, they're no friends of mine. If a man don't have a badge, he'd best not order me around.
Got a link of some sort?

Biker

 

[Manedwolf]

This was a personal occurrence with friends of mine trying to help their family in the area, who got a "respect my authority" scare at rifle-point from one for parking in the wrong place while trying to buy supplies. I had seen some articles of some other people mentioning such things, I'll try to find them.

And I agree. If someone doesn't have a badge, and they point a gun at me, they're just a criminal.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Mercenaries

Yup.

Mercenaries. The idiots who turned them loose in NOLA need a smack upside the head. You take guys with guns and tell them they have authority, while forgetting to tell anyone else, and without assigning a handler with a real badge . . . that's a bad day.

I'm wondering, though, if their mission and rules of engagement in foreign theatres isn't at little more . . . liberal . . . so that things can get done which our guys just aren't allowed to do?

But, anyway, they're evil mercenaries and they deserved to die. What, they were being paid to help us out? The bastards! They should be taking those risks for free! And besides, soldiers only carry guns because we make them. The mercenaries probably like guns -- probably even brought their own! Disgusting!

Yeah. Bunch of crazy gun-totin' hotheads being overpaid to strut around in a foreign country. 'Bout time they got killed. Serves 'em right.

 

[DMK]

I'm not a big fan of these private security firms either. Not only does it undermine our military and funds they should be getting, but it's scary how these corporations are able to operate outside of established parameters set for our government, military and police forces. The fact they they were actually used on our own soil is even scarier. It's a way for the govt. to get around rules and do things they aren't supposed to be doing IMO.

do they just risk wrongful death suits by the spouse, kids or parents?

How is wrongful death even applicable in this situation? Unless they were killed by friendly fire, they were killed doing the hazardous job they signed up for. It would be like a policeman's son suing the PD because a drug dealer killed him. I'm no lawyer, it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[jwalk]

Since this seems to be a bash Blackwater/mercs thread, I suggest reading
"A Bloody Business: America's War Zone Contractors and the Occupation of Iraq" by Gerry Schumacher. The reasons for people signing up to be "contracters" are as different to why people join the military. Some are ex-military forced out by the move up or move out policy. Some wish to serve while not putting up with some of the military bueracracy and bs. Some are there for the money.
I'm not exactly sure where I come down on hiring out jobs to contracters/mercenaries, but they are doing a lot of the jobs we don't do. Guarding our supply convoys that provide materials for our bases and providing security to our ambassadors and other diplomats come to mind. I doubt many on here have ever talked to any Blackwater guys. I have. They're far from the evil, gun-toting, crazies the media loves to make them out to be.
Oh and the Katrina/Blackwater incidents, it's funny to see how when guys started pouring into the cities with guns (National Guard and Blackwater), you heard less and less about shooting and looting. What else do you do when your police force goes AWOL. Perhaps it'll spark discussion on what to do next time seeing that the whole nation was unprepared for an event like that one.
I feel bad for both crews on those helicopters. They're both trying to do their part whether they're there by choice or not. I volunteered to go to the desert with my unit. Does that make me a mercenary? Others in the military volunteer to go with other units. They pay us a lot better over there than stateside. Does that make us mercenaries? I don't know. Something to think about.

 

[noops]

I'm with manedwolf. They're mercenaries, and while I certainly don't wish anyone that sort of death, they went for the money, knowing the risks.

 

[ShackleMeNot]

The High Road?

 

[frostbiker]

Jwalk, I read that book, too. A very enlightening read.

I know of one guy sent to NOLA with Blackwater. Yes, he brought his own gear with him...because he knew it worked. FEMA and the major phone company down there were the biggest contracts for Blackwater. The phone company asked for sight security and escort of their personnel They did a lot of boat insertions and building clearing. Most often, they would see signs of squatters but never had serious run-ins on his watch. He also did security in the Quarter. I am sorry that Blackwater contractors were giving people a hard time down there. From some other people who were there, I heard opposite of what is being said. As far as I knew, Blackwater was the consummate professional organization. I am sure there were some heavy handed tactics employed against squatters or others perceived as threats, but hearing the average joe was getting rousted by 'mercs' is disheartening. Probably just a scattered few giving their company a bad rap.

The guy down there said they did all they could to protect Blackwater's rep in NOLA. He cited an instance where one of the contractors recently hired did something completely stupid and against company policies. I forget exactly what, but near as I can recall it was an ND/AD type incident. The head honchos fired the guy on the spot and literally stripped him of anything that had Blackwater printed on it, and anything they issued that didn't. This guy was put on a plane back to wherever in his 5.11 pants, sneakers and a plain white t-shirt.

I can't say as I blame anyone for hating 'mercs' for what they do, but I understand the reasoning behind why so many are over in Iraq now. We have to admit that the military is grossly understaffed and cannot handle all the logistical and civil affairs needs of the Iraqi people. Some are in it for the money, sure, and others still are in it for the adventure, rush, life experience, patriotic duty, whatever. Some people are born to that type of work and others feel a calling to do that which they believe is a good thing.

As with any capitalistic venture, there will be good and bad contractors/mercs. Those good ones will probably not be noticed unless some of their people have died in an ambush. The bad ones are making the nightly news for heavy handed tactics and other stupid stuff. People will soon see the bad companies for what they are and seek out the good companies.

I just pray for the families of those lost Blackwater guys. They are doing a helluva job for whatever personal reasons in a helluva place. Godspeed.

 

[MHBushmaster]

As it was alluded to, these contractors are civillians with no LEO authority. They were called into NOLA due to a severe shortage of manpower. How they acted in specific situations in NOLA was horrible, no questions about it.

For clarification, Blackwater does not issue full auto weapons to their contractors/aka "Mercenaries". They are issued Bushmaster rifles, with some minor modifications, all are semi-auto. They cannot issue full-auto in the US, and are surprisingly restricted to their use of full auto in Iraq.

Like them or not, these contractors are needed; wheather it be due to the current shortage of troops in Iraq (thus the talk of a needed troop "surge"), doing the jobs that the .mil deems unimportant to national interestes, or that they are bottom line cheaper (already trained, very few lifelong commitments from company to contractor, and a shorter vertical command structure).

Before you flame me and if you think I am wrong, I am not a big fan of BlackWater or the other mysterious Merc Agencies out there. I think it is murky waters that they tread in, regarding the historical context of mercanaries and their allegiances.
For reference to some positive aspects of "modern-outsourced-security-contractors" look up/google "Executive Outcomes" and see what they did in Africa in the early to mid 1990's. Quick summary of that is for the price E.O. (A Merc group comprised of former SAS, SBS, Foreign Legion, GSG-9, Delta, Regular Army, etc.) charged and the time it took them to completely "liberate" an entire African country, they sure as hell did it faster than anyone thought possible.They were completely self sufficient, purchased everything on their own, and had no national allegiances. The UN felt threatened by them, and they were quickly deemed un-PC and were summarily disbanded.
Unfortunately, most western armies today fight with one arm and one leg tied behind the back and the UN is about as useful as an icebox in Antartica. Mercs can pretty much do as they please in accomplishing their objectives in places where a larger national force is absent.

 

[cowboybobb693]

ARFINGREEBLY.

they're evil mercenaries and they deserved to die. What, they were being paid to help us out? The bastards! They should be taking those risks for free! And besides, soldiers only carry guns because we make them. The mercenaries probably like guns -- probably even brought their own! Disgusting!
Yeah. Bunch of crazy gun-totin' hotheads being overpaid to strut around in a foreign country. 'Bout time they got killed. Serves 'em right.__________________

You Sir, have basically crossed the line.
In your logic, a Policeman,Fireman,EMT that put themselves in harms way "for a paycheck" are Mercs.
Unless you have specific knowledge/contact with any "merc's" I propose to you, that your opinions are somewhat unfounded. Numerous soldiers that I have been fortunate enough to work with my 35 years in the Mlitary have taken positions with companies like BW, they are not " Gun-totin hotheads" they are PROFESSIONAL SOLDIERS that were given the opportunity to use their skills in the private sector.
Your comments are degrading and are NOT THR material

 

[Lennyjoe]

My God, what has the High Road become?

These men died while trying to provide not only a possible income for their family but a life for themselves. Maybe they can't serve in the active military and wanted to do something to help the Iraqis build a democracy.

Maybe, we should say our condolences and move on.

 

[jwalk]

ARFINGREEBLY.

I also would like some clarification on your comments. I read your post not knowing what to think. Like cowboybobb693 said, Blackwater is made up of a lot of former military to include SEALs, Delta, and Special Forces. One year they're serving in uniform, the next they might be with Blackwater or other security agencies. What makes them evil? The opportunity to stay in the same line of work, serving their country, or wantonly killing people for the hell of it?
One of my close friends was in SF during Vietnam, survived three helicopter crashes and countless firefights. He found himself in South America training anti-narcotic forces, you know evil mercenary stuff. He wasn't an evil mercenary who deserved to die. He was doing his best to keep drugs off the street keeping you, me, and everyone else a little safer. I guess the good pay he got was well deserved considering the fact that after his fourth helicopter crash he couldn't walk for three years. Please feel free to clarify your statements. Tell me how you can sit there and use blanket statements that sterotype all these men.

 

[Zoogster]

You Sir, have basically crossed the line.

ArfinGreebly was obviously being sarcastic.

But, anyway, they're evil mercenaries and they deserved to die. What, they were being paid to help us out? The bastards! They should be taking those risks for free! And besides, soldiers only carry guns because we make them. The mercenaries probably like guns -- probably even brought their own! Disgusting!

I think that line shows it was sarcastic as everyone here likes guns, and that was obviously meant to give support to them

Mercs are a big grey area to me. However most of them are former troops, often some of the most qualified of the former troops. They operate with little besides thier small arms which is inherently more dangerous when you consider that US troops are backed by artillery and airpower that can be brought down on a moment's notice upon the heads of those they only have to pin down for a short time. The mercs must endure the battle, engage in prolonged firefights on occasion and backup is likely not coming.
When you consider many of those hired are former special forces, or infantry with extensive experience you see they are many of the same boys wearing one uniform instead of another. They have a shorter command line and do not need to wait forever while good suggestions are given the okay to field personal.
Private companies with thier own armies are dangerous however, it is like a sanctioned tribe, allowed to be openly armed while the rest of us cannot. Thier allegience is to profit, not any particular country or cause, however some of thier individuals may sign up to go to places that have a cause they care about, the company still has ulterior motives. Is the nation that different though? No, resources and profit, creating in debt nations that owe us favors, all motivate our government as well. So the only real difference is we have checks and balances in place in the government, and the contractors do not.
Yet right now they are quite beneficial. Then again the Mercs used by the Romans that later turned on them and knew everything about them, making them much more effective were beneficial at one time too. It would be many of the same Merc 'barbarians' individuals used by Rome in thier armies would be in the barbarian armies that sacked and plundered Rome later on. As Rome started to decline it outsourced more and more. Those they outsourced to learned thier tactics and strategies and were armed well with the knowledge of how they were vulnerable.

 

[TX1911fan]

I really wasn't looking for a bash Blackwater thread. These guys are definitely not mercinaries. A "merc" is a person paid by a government to fight a war for said government. These guys are not fighting the war. They are providing armed security for reconstruction projects, multinational corporations trying to get the oil flowing so we can have cheaper gas, bodyguard duties for dignitaries and executives, protective detail for vital assets, and, as someone already pointed out, in many cases providing base and convoy security for the US armed forces so our soldiers can be otherwise engaged.

I was hoping someone had seen a Blackwater contract so I could see how they handle liability. To answer someone's question above, you'd be surprised how lawsuits can spring up. If governmental agencies didn't have sovreign immunity in most cases, you can bet your life the widows or the kids or the parents would be bringing wrongful death suits. The military avoids it through the same use of sovreign immunity. I'm interested to see how private security firms do it.

 

[mbt2001]

Manedwolf:

My Dad's company had to call in Blackwater Security to help them get their Networks up and running. New Orleans was the "hub" for the entire state of LA and while we can debate bad design, the technicians were under fire, went in 3 times and were shot at and beaten. Their supplies stolen, diesel from their generators was stolen, one load of diesel they sent in was stolen by the NOPD...

So, they had to call the state police and Blackwater to keep their folks safe and get the Network back up, which gave coms to the government and private companies as well...

So there was more to the story. Sorry your friends got caught in the middle of the crap...

I think the National Guard should should be standing by and immeadiatly take over after a disaster... The police should be relieved of command until the Governor gives the nod to start transitioning back to normal... Hopefully that would stop all that crap that happened in NOLA from happening again.

 

[jwalk]

TX1911fan :
I'd suggest "A Bloody Buisness" like I said before. I remember the author talking about that for a little bit and I'd look it up if I didn't give the book to my brother. I think they signed some kind of release form, but can't say for sure.
If I remember right, the families of the four Blackwater contracters killed in Falluja a couple years ago were looking at a lawsuit for Blackwater putting them in an area like that by themselves without an armored vehicle but haven't seen anything about it lately.
These guys know they're on their own if they get pinned down. I believe a year or two ago some Blackwater guys got pinned down in a city and fought it out pretty much on their own. There's some videos out on it. Maybe it was Najaf. The book talked about it and Paul Bremmer was going crazy trying to evacuate them not wanting another "bridge hanging." Blackwater started resupplying them on their own with their helicopters and whatnot.

 

[TX1911fan]

jwalk, thanks.