Okay I need some constructive help here! I emphasize constructive! I'm a very safe reloader spend a lot of time checking brass and charges. but the other day I was shooting my p226 .40 and i "blew up" a cartridge the case severed in half with the front half remaining in the chamber and the back half lodging in the action. The gas cracked the grips, and the extractor flew out. the gun has been checked and in no way seems to be damaged. I have purchased the parts and rebuilt the gun, new grips and all new extractor parts. I have shot hundreds of rounds of this stuff with no issues. the report seemed week, I'm assuming due to the escaping gases. in the end I spent 100.00 putting the gun back together and 5000.00 on eye surgery to remove the portion of the case that didn't stay in the gun. I've learned my lesson on safety glasses so we can leave that out of the conversation. What I am concerned about is that I haven't shot it or my ammo since this incident. I triple check everything. this batch I believe was made while first learning how to use my lee pro 1000. so I'm wondering if something distracted me and a double charge got through. It just didn't seem like what I expected out of a double charge.. could the case have been faulty. the brass was once fired. just any ideas would help I have about 2500 rnds of this stuff and I'm at a loss as to whether to shoot any more, or what. I've shot thousands of rounds of my reloads and they have always been accurate and safe. I worked this load up and I believe it was 4.5 grs tightgroup behind a 180 gr tc
blew up my sig...well kinda
- Thread starter suzukisam
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You may have fired the round out-of-battery.
Try pulling the slide back a little and see if it will still fire.
I have an EAA Witness .40 that can fire well out of battery. Some day I will have the money and think about it and take it to a smith to fix it.
I shoot .38 Special Wadcutter in a S&W Model 52 auto. I had a case rupture. Now, the loads are low pressure, going 700-775fps. The shot just sort of "farted" and smoke came up from the breech. Did no damage. Can only assume that the case was also just slightly out of battery and the gun is chambered loose, so it doesn't support the case well. It was definitely NOT a double charge.
Thus, for a "blow up" you can have an overload, a case failure due to chamber not supporting the case well enough, and firing out-of-battery.
The .40 lives with case bulges (even with a well-supported barrel) and if you do not use a bulge-buster, you can easily get a round that just barely does not chamber. Everything that can go wrong seems to exist with the .40.
Try pulling the slide back a little and see if it will still fire.
I have an EAA Witness .40 that can fire well out of battery. Some day I will have the money and think about it and take it to a smith to fix it.
I shoot .38 Special Wadcutter in a S&W Model 52 auto. I had a case rupture. Now, the loads are low pressure, going 700-775fps. The shot just sort of "farted" and smoke came up from the breech. Did no damage. Can only assume that the case was also just slightly out of battery and the gun is chambered loose, so it doesn't support the case well. It was definitely NOT a double charge.
Thus, for a "blow up" you can have an overload, a case failure due to chamber not supporting the case well enough, and firing out-of-battery.
The .40 lives with case bulges (even with a well-supported barrel) and if you do not use a bulge-buster, you can easily get a round that just barely does not chamber. Everything that can go wrong seems to exist with the .40.
jeeptim
Member
I use a lee turret press. For a short time i used the through die powder charge as your tooling along just one to many pulls will not be good. Now I use the rcbs powder measure then check with a flashlight, Just dont like not seeing the powder in the case.
Hope all is O.K. with your eye.
Hope all is O.K. with your eye.
I do use a lee factory crimp die with the carbide re-sizer ring. I have not had (as far as I know) any feeding issues. I shot many of them from my glock, sigma, xd, hk, and sig. none of these guns gave any problems. I fear that this was a double charge, but my loading process is such that it would be nearly impossible unless the handle was pulled twice without a full stroke, but I don't ever do that? and half of my ammo was loaded by hand measuring.. sure wish it wasn't all combined.. would help me narrow the problem down. I tried weighing cartridges but between bullet, case, powder, and primer variations, there was at the most a 10 gr spread. My charge is only 4.5 so who knows! I'm very perplexed... guess I'll have to start shooting with my welding helmet.
thanks jeep it's been a couple months and the stitches just came out, I'm 20/20 again. I was sure lucky it pierced through the cornea. My eye juices were falling out...eewwwwww! in all seriousness I was more than lucky...blessed. Put your glasses on guys even hunting it's worth it!
thanks jeep it's been a couple months and the stitches just came out, I'm 20/20 again. I was sure lucky it pierced through the cornea. My eye juices were falling out...eewwwwww! in all seriousness I was more than lucky...blessed. Put your glasses on guys even hunting it's worth it!
rfwobbly
Member
Glad you're OK. It would be nice to know your powder.
sweater914
Member
Wow, glad you're eye healed properly. I've loaded several different powders in .40 without issue on my Rock Chucker. My USP Compact eats all the ammo. I'm sure you're now a huge advocate of glasses/safety glasses while shooting. Even then the glasses aren't enough. I had a .40 case drop vertically between my glasses and right eye, since then I've added a baseball hat. I've had stuff pulled out of eyes twice in 30 years, I'm hoping it doesn't happen again.
fluffy
Member
i had a fn 49 years back,firing pin broke,fired a round out of battery.broke the stock,showered me with pieces of brass in the face and neck.glad I had glasses on.
Jim Watson
Member
Titegroup is a dark dense powder. I only loaded one can of it because I was not confident of being able to tell the difference between 1.0 charge and 1.5 or 2.0.
So an overload is possible.
So an overload is possible.
1stmarine
Member
Sorry this happened.
As someone suggested could this be out of battery? try to slightly move the slide back with a snap cap on it and see if it will fire in different positions?
I pickup loads that with such volume that a double will spill out so it will be obvious. measure the rounds every 10 or so. Also a precision scale can tell you if you aggregate all the weight of a nr. of loads (lets say 20) and any substantial difference will show up in the aggregate nr. If you have same brand brass sorted, consistent loads and good coppers this works great.
Also make sure the brass is trimmed properly and free of any damage (visual and tactile inspection). Otherwise it could have been simply a bad brass failure but it is so rare. hummm.
Did you have the gun inspected by an expert before working on it?. You will be surprised what forensic analysis of a gun can tell to some folks. They are dead on.
I would get rid of the gun and get a new one. I would not fiddle with that, but that is me.
Now. Look at these guys trying to blow up a gun and they couldn't. Something fun but got me thinking....
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=567810
Cheers,
E.
As someone suggested could this be out of battery? try to slightly move the slide back with a snap cap on it and see if it will fire in different positions?
I pickup loads that with such volume that a double will spill out so it will be obvious. measure the rounds every 10 or so. Also a precision scale can tell you if you aggregate all the weight of a nr. of loads (lets say 20) and any substantial difference will show up in the aggregate nr. If you have same brand brass sorted, consistent loads and good coppers this works great.
Also make sure the brass is trimmed properly and free of any damage (visual and tactile inspection). Otherwise it could have been simply a bad brass failure but it is so rare. hummm.
Did you have the gun inspected by an expert before working on it?. You will be surprised what forensic analysis of a gun can tell to some folks. They are dead on.
I would get rid of the gun and get a new one. I would not fiddle with that, but that is me.
Now. Look at these guys trying to blow up a gun and they couldn't. Something fun but got me thinking....
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=567810
Cheers,
E.
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I did not replace the gun it is gtg.. the recoil and all was so weak because the gas escaped so many directions that I'm not sure it would even be likely that damage to the gun would have occurred. I was shooting lead projectiles and the next bullet inline in the mag was nearly cut in half by the escaping gas
That really sounds like an OOB, to me.
Obvious precautions, here:
Pull a few random bullets and weigh the projectiles and powder charge, just to make sure you are shooting what you think you are.
And chamber check your ammo. Especially lead .40 reloads. A bad bullet or a bulged case can both contribute to an OOB kB.
A Lee FCD will ensure the bullet isn't out or round or oversize. But it will not heal the base of some bulged brass. You need a push through adaptor to do that. You remove the crimp ring, completely, then push the entire round all the way through the FCD sizing ring, until it pops out the top.
In the future, you might also reconsider your use of 180 grain bullets with such a fast powder. I plan to drop 180 grain bullets from my reloading schedule, completely, for safety reasons. A disproportionate number of kB's seems to happen with the 180 grain bullets.
And personally, the fastest powder I plan to ever use with .40 is Unique, but I mainly use Auto Comp. I use W231 in .45 and 9mm, but I don't plan to even try it in .40. You save a wee bit of money and recoil with a light load of a fast powder, but you're getting a sharper pressure spike, higher risk for a double charge going unnoticed, and more sensitivity to setback/OAL. (And lower velocities!)
Obvious precautions, here:
Pull a few random bullets and weigh the projectiles and powder charge, just to make sure you are shooting what you think you are.
And chamber check your ammo. Especially lead .40 reloads. A bad bullet or a bulged case can both contribute to an OOB kB.
A Lee FCD will ensure the bullet isn't out or round or oversize. But it will not heal the base of some bulged brass. You need a push through adaptor to do that. You remove the crimp ring, completely, then push the entire round all the way through the FCD sizing ring, until it pops out the top.
In the future, you might also reconsider your use of 180 grain bullets with such a fast powder. I plan to drop 180 grain bullets from my reloading schedule, completely, for safety reasons. A disproportionate number of kB's seems to happen with the 180 grain bullets.
And personally, the fastest powder I plan to ever use with .40 is Unique, but I mainly use Auto Comp. I use W231 in .45 and 9mm, but I don't plan to even try it in .40. You save a wee bit of money and recoil with a light load of a fast powder, but you're getting a sharper pressure spike, higher risk for a double charge going unnoticed, and more sensitivity to setback/OAL. (And lower velocities!)
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gamestalker
member
Even if it is determined that it was a malfunction with the gun, I would still consider loading with a slower powder. Personally, I load with the slowest powders available for all my firearms. In most cases, loading with slow powders makes it nearly impossible with most cartridges to even accept a double charge without powder spilling out of the case. And quite honestly, they are usually the better performing powders for both accuracy, and velocity. A personal prefrence indeed, but just a thought to consider since you've had such a close call. I load .40 and 9mm with Longshot and have never had a problem, but that's me and only a personal opinion.
Good to know your not permantly blind or worse.
Good to know your not permantly blind or worse.
MaterDei
Member
Not wanting to derail the thread but wouldn't this be a warranty repair item? Certainly the gun isn't designed to be able to fire OOB, is it?
243winxb
Member
Looks like to much powder. You need to find the cause. Pull bullets or scrap that batch of ammo. You will no longer injoy shooting with that ammo, as you will be thinking about the next KABOOM at every pull of the trigger. 
Hodgdon's warning should apply to all 40's that bulge the web area of the brass.
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[/URL][/IMG] I do not own a 40S&W.
Hodgdon's warning should apply to all 40's that bulge the web area of the brass.
No firearm should be bulging the web area of the brass and need a special bulge buster die. IMO
all good info guys. You know, now that I think about it, It may have been oob! But no way to be sure about anything at this point. I will run some tests and pull a few bullets. and I agree I think I'm done with tg in this cartridge. Unfortunately I have 2500 rounds that I just can't scrap. I ahave always run less dense powders. thats what I love about varget, just right at a full case in a 223 is the load I use. 26.0 gr behind a 55gr pill fills to just the bottom of the neck. Like I said a dc I would have thought to be louder, it seemed weak. Oob actually makes way more sense. Man this sucks. I think what I may do is just set out a couple hundred rounds run them through the pistol and see if I get anything not locking up, and then run them through bb die. that way before I go shoot I know everything is good with that lot. as far as powder charge goes I'm going to pull quite a few, but I'm telling you I'm really careful with powder and I've always known the risks of tg, so I feel like I've paid extra good attention
243winxb
Member
40 S&W KABOOM Link
Above photos and story come from THR post here > http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=377078&highlight=40+S%26amp%3BW
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-243-
that thread was very helpful.. I really think it was an oob. It was mention several times that brass might "flow" in an over charge but mine just broke like the picture. and I had quite a bit of case left on the rear portion that broke. it was what I would have expected to see out of a rifle with long head space, where you get that shiny ring, or breaks. and that was a lot of case thinking back, but I don't have any of it anymore, so I can't be sure... I'm still gonna go through everything.. been wanting a threaded barrel so this may be an excuse to go ahead and change it out just to be sure
that thread was very helpful.. I really think it was an oob. It was mention several times that brass might "flow" in an over charge but mine just broke like the picture. and I had quite a bit of case left on the rear portion that broke. it was what I would have expected to see out of a rifle with long head space, where you get that shiny ring, or breaks. and that was a lot of case thinking back, but I don't have any of it anymore, so I can't be sure... I'm still gonna go through everything.. been wanting a threaded barrel so this may be an excuse to go ahead and change it out just to be sure
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243winxb
Member
Suzukisam, Not always easy to track down the problem. With 2500 rounds loaded, pulling or scraping is not an option. Glad to see your back to 20/20. Be Safe.
okay so I did a little test, and I can pull the slide back approx 1/8" maybe a little under a 1/4" and the hammer will drop, much past that and the trigger disconnects, how much should I be able to move the slide? I would say there is a healthy 1/8" of my guide rod out the front of the slide when the trigger is still engaged
GW Staar
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I read thru all the posts and didn't see any mention of bullet setback, so I will add that possibility. With .40 just a 1/16" of setback can spike the pressures, especially with that heavy bullet. That's usually the cause of such accidents on police ranges, from repeat cycling of the magazines. (practicing clearing jams and stovepipes and otherwise racking the slide without firing).
The other "cause" documented in some cases was weak webs in Federal brass. Federal has since (several years ago) redesigned the webs....you didn't mention case brand or how old it was.
As for "glocked" brass, two things can happen. the widened area can prevent locking into battery....and/or unsupported area in the ramp is facing the already bulged/weakened area.
I know you are frustrated trying to get to the bottom of this, and adding more "choices" doesn't help....but it's best that you have all the scenarios to examine.
The other "cause" documented in some cases was weak webs in Federal brass. Federal has since (several years ago) redesigned the webs....you didn't mention case brand or how old it was.
As for "glocked" brass, two things can happen. the widened area can prevent locking into battery....and/or unsupported area in the ramp is facing the already bulged/weakened area.
I know you are frustrated trying to get to the bottom of this, and adding more "choices" doesn't help....but it's best that you have all the scenarios to examine.
whatnickname
Member
What you had is referred to as a kaboom...no kidding here
The debate on what causes this stuff is a hot one. These incidents are more prevelent in polymer frame guns with polyagonal rifling. Now to what causes them. In some cases we have a few clues and in others even the true experts don't know. Let's start off with the basics first...pressure is the cause here but what causes the pressure? Some posters on your thread have suggested that you may have fired a round out of battery. This will certainly do it. The causes for such often are related to poor maintenance or as someone else has suggested improperly sized cases. Unfortunately the S&W .40 seems to be plagued by this more than others. The culprit in many of these instances is brass fired in a Glock .40, particularly the 1st and 2nd generations where the chambers do not fully support the case head due to the configuration of the feed ramp in these pistols. Glock has done a better job of correcting this problem in the 3rd and 4th generation pistols but the case head support is still not as good as in other pistols IMO. Other sources of kabooms in the .40 have been attributed to the use of cast bullets in barrels with polyagonal rifling where lead fouling tends to build up, rapidly increasing pressures to dangerous levels. Things like excessive crimping of bullets have also been attributed to kabooms. A good many kabooms have been linked to the use of Accurate Arms powder #5...even the experts don't know why. Your comment about the light report causes me to believe that you may have short changed a case resulting in a detonation (I'll explain more about this later) but a light charge of relatively fast burning powder in a handgun can turn a pistol into a grenade. Considering your choice of reloading equipment, I suspect that some powder may have gotten under the Lee charge disk causing it to hang up a bit and fail to drop a full powder charge. I had a Lee 1000 years ago and experienced this problem with several of the smaller grain powders...particularly ball powders. This is the reason I disposed of the Lee. Lee may have very well addressed this problem by now...I don't know as I use other equipment and have for some time now.
As for the cause of detonations, the following is an excerpt of one of my other posts on THR:
...No one has ever really been able to figure out exactly what is going on here. The best hypothesis I have heard goes something like this: "The powder is blown to the opposite end of the case by the primer. Some of the powder has burned but more of it just gets kind of melted together and forms an in case obstruction of sorts until the pressure generated by the powder that is burning builds to a critical level and then detonates..." (KA-BOOM as it were). The reloading manuals are full of warnings about lighter than recommended charges of powder; particularly in rifles. They never really go into details about why. I can make a detonation in a new york minute by using a half charge in a rifle cartridge with a sharp shoulder like a .243 for example...talk about a "KA-BOOM" you will turn your rifle into a grenade. Mike "Duke" Venturino, noted gun writer, has completely de-commissioned some large frame single action revolvers using light charges of fast burning powder...detonations for sure. The pictures he published were scary! I have seen detonantions occur in center fire rifles that were loaded with cast bullets and small charges of relatively fast burning powder. Most of these shooters will stuff the case with some type of fiber (used to be kapok) to keep the powder up against the back of the case. I've seen light charges of fast powder used in large capacity straight walled rifle cases (.45-90 )with corn meal placed on top of the powder charge for the same reason. Every once in a while someone gets something wrong and the result usually involves a trip to the hospital. Use fast burning powders in your .40 if you wish. I don't. Short charge a .40 case with something really fast and you're likely to regret it!
I'm glad you didn't lose your eye and that you understand the value of proper eye protection. If you believe in the "hear after" and would like to be able to hear after you finish your shooting session, please wear good quality ear protection...as for me if you want to have a conversation with me stand toward my right side and SPEAK UP DAMNIT!!!)
The debate on what causes this stuff is a hot one. These incidents are more prevelent in polymer frame guns with polyagonal rifling. Now to what causes them. In some cases we have a few clues and in others even the true experts don't know. Let's start off with the basics first...pressure is the cause here but what causes the pressure? Some posters on your thread have suggested that you may have fired a round out of battery. This will certainly do it. The causes for such often are related to poor maintenance or as someone else has suggested improperly sized cases. Unfortunately the S&W .40 seems to be plagued by this more than others. The culprit in many of these instances is brass fired in a Glock .40, particularly the 1st and 2nd generations where the chambers do not fully support the case head due to the configuration of the feed ramp in these pistols. Glock has done a better job of correcting this problem in the 3rd and 4th generation pistols but the case head support is still not as good as in other pistols IMO. Other sources of kabooms in the .40 have been attributed to the use of cast bullets in barrels with polyagonal rifling where lead fouling tends to build up, rapidly increasing pressures to dangerous levels. Things like excessive crimping of bullets have also been attributed to kabooms. A good many kabooms have been linked to the use of Accurate Arms powder #5...even the experts don't know why. Your comment about the light report causes me to believe that you may have short changed a case resulting in a detonation (I'll explain more about this later) but a light charge of relatively fast burning powder in a handgun can turn a pistol into a grenade. Considering your choice of reloading equipment, I suspect that some powder may have gotten under the Lee charge disk causing it to hang up a bit and fail to drop a full powder charge. I had a Lee 1000 years ago and experienced this problem with several of the smaller grain powders...particularly ball powders. This is the reason I disposed of the Lee. Lee may have very well addressed this problem by now...I don't know as I use other equipment and have for some time now.
As for the cause of detonations, the following is an excerpt of one of my other posts on THR:
...No one has ever really been able to figure out exactly what is going on here. The best hypothesis I have heard goes something like this: "The powder is blown to the opposite end of the case by the primer. Some of the powder has burned but more of it just gets kind of melted together and forms an in case obstruction of sorts until the pressure generated by the powder that is burning builds to a critical level and then detonates..." (KA-BOOM as it were). The reloading manuals are full of warnings about lighter than recommended charges of powder; particularly in rifles. They never really go into details about why. I can make a detonation in a new york minute by using a half charge in a rifle cartridge with a sharp shoulder like a .243 for example...talk about a "KA-BOOM" you will turn your rifle into a grenade. Mike "Duke" Venturino, noted gun writer, has completely de-commissioned some large frame single action revolvers using light charges of fast burning powder...detonations for sure. The pictures he published were scary! I have seen detonantions occur in center fire rifles that were loaded with cast bullets and small charges of relatively fast burning powder. Most of these shooters will stuff the case with some type of fiber (used to be kapok) to keep the powder up against the back of the case. I've seen light charges of fast powder used in large capacity straight walled rifle cases (.45-90 )with corn meal placed on top of the powder charge for the same reason. Every once in a while someone gets something wrong and the result usually involves a trip to the hospital. Use fast burning powders in your .40 if you wish. I don't. Short charge a .40 case with something really fast and you're likely to regret it!
I'm glad you didn't lose your eye and that you understand the value of proper eye protection. If you believe in the "hear after" and would like to be able to hear after you finish your shooting session, please wear good quality ear protection...as for me if you want to have a conversation with me stand toward my right side and SPEAK UP DAMNIT!!!
)
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GW Staar
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OOB sounds plausable with that. Why it was OOB is the question. Was your once shot brass shot in another gun. Also strip your pistol and with the barrel out, place several of your reloads in the chamber. Does it slide all the way in? Is the feed ram designed such that a lot of the case is unsupported? Take a razor tipped Magic Marker and draw a line around the unsupported area. Is it enough for the powder to blow a hole through? Older Federal Brass??
Whatnickname's under-charge fast powder grenade is truly another option. Thing is, it's probably a combination. One thing might not do the deed..two or more will.
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