Blew up a Kahr

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longdayjake said:
As it turns out, I am not a complete moron when it comes to the law so I am still able to do fairly well. I will never be top of the class, but at least I don't feel like an idiot.
When you graduate, at least we'll be able to trust and count on ONE lawyer! :D:rolleyes:

experienced reloader ... well, the guy has been doing it for many more years than I have. Sadly he didn't tell me until afterward that he has done it before. Twice.
:eek::scrutiny: I don't know whether to laugh or cry ... oh my, this was a PREVENTABLE event


I am having back problems from shoveling too much over the winter. Or maybe it is from lifting all the lead that I sell. Whatever the reason...my back freaking hurts.
BTW, if you want to support a back breaking law student who will support our Second Amendment rights, buy bullets from him - http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/

If you want to try out various mix of calibers/bullet weights, he has quantities down to 250 for Montana Gold jacketed pistol bullets and air/pulled rifle bullets with FREE SHIPPING on all orders.
 
I don't load with fast burning powders for anything I load, and not just because they prevent a double charge, though that is a deffinite advantage. Even with the smaller straight walled or tapered cartridges, the slower powders seem less temparmental and perform more consistently, in my opinion. But in all honesty, I've known and heard of many accidents just like this one caused by an over charge of faster burning powders. I realize the data exists and is certainly safe as listed, but the risk is also just as existent if all the safe guards aren't being adhearded to.
I'm glad to hear he wasn't seriously injured, and hope he'll return to had loading, but with a little more respect for the hobby.
 
Steve Koski said:
Take the RCBS decapping pin and grind the tip so that it is sharp/angled. A dremel tool is recommended, as those bastards are hard. Changing the shape of the point will keep it from hanging on to spent primers.
Put a very slight angle towards the tip, as suggested. Don't make the tip pointy, or it will pierce the primers and you'll have a bigger issue. Take a polishing bit and break the corner at the tip. And then polish the pin as smooth as snot. That will get rid of about 99.5% of the issue. The other 0.5% I have as yet to figure out.

BTW, was there any possibility of a bullet setback? Maybe unlikely, but never hurts to check.
 
You should be able to tell a double charged round from others with a normal charge just by weighing the loaded rounds if you have an accurate digital scale.
 
You should be able to tell a double charged round from others with a normal charge just by weighing the loaded rounds if you have an accurate digital scale

Thats not true at all. When this was discussed before my self and another member weighed brass and bullets of different makes. Within a single headstamp and a single bullet combo in 45acp there could be up to a 7gr difference. When you consider that most powder charges are less than this, you really cant tell. In a large rifle round, yes, but those are usually filled to a much greater density.
 
Concentration, attention to detail, maintenance of the press and dies, eliminating distractions, and persnickety consistency when operating the press delivers safe handloads. My favorite plinker load for 40 s&w is 2.6 gr 231 and berrys 155gr bullet. It would be easy to double charge if one is in a hurry and not patient.

My then 20 yr old son loaded some 9mm for himself and insisted (against my advice) he could have his walkman music in his ears. Luckily I was with him when he shot that batch of ammo and hollered when it didn't sound right. Two rounds had no powder and stuck the bullets. It was a memorable lesson and nobody got hurt.

He is starting to think his old man is right with the rules! He also popped off a primer somehow a few years ago shortly after I reminded him to put those safety glasses on when priming cases(as well as the whole process!). No need to remind him again!
 
ljnowell said:
isc said:
You should be able to tell a double charged round from others with a normal charge just by weighing the loaded rounds if you have an accurate digital scale
Thats not true at all.
+1 to what ljnowell posted. That myth is SO BUSTED!

Case weights can vary quite a bit, even for same head stamp cases (6 -10+ gr) and with most bullets being off 1 - 5+ gr, the case/bullet weight variations make it nearly IMPOSSIBLE to tell whether you got a no powder charge, partial charge or even a double charge in a pistol case.

I just weighed some cases and got over 10 gr swing on 45ACP cases and over 6 gr swing on 40S&W cases.

45ACP (grains):
94.6 PMC
94.0 CCI
93.8 PMC
93.6 WCC 93
93.3 PMC
93.2 WIN
92.9 WCC 99
92.9 SPEER
92.2 PMC
91.0 CCI
90.9 FiocchiUSA (Sm Primer)
89.7 CCI
88.2 RP
88.1 BLAZER
88.1 CBC
88.0 WIN
87.8 S&B
87.5 CCI
87.4 FEDERAL
87.0 BLAZER
86.9 WIN
86.4 FEDERAL
86.3 RP
86.0 FiocchiUSA (Lg Primer)
84.7 WCC 71
82.9 STARLINE
82.5 STARLINE
82.7 WCC 80


40S&W (grains):
74.7 CBC
73.0 WIN
72.4 SPEER
72.2 BLAZER
72.1 WIN
71.3 WIN
71.2 FEDERAL
70.2 WIN
70.1 FEDERAL
70.2 RP
69.2 PMC
68.5 PMC
 
Ok, This is gonna be a long one...but given " you coulda put yer eye out" is no more a fairy tale in this instance...I think its justified. YMMV.


I'm very sorry to hear that your friend had an unfortunate experience.

The fact that "upon further review" it was the third time it has happened to him is also unfortunate, but not unexpected given your story of how he arrived at the loaded cartridges.

I'm very glad it wasn't the straw that broke the camels back this time- but it might be next time.

The dies, powder, primer, press...all functionally irrelevant except for the short throw issue...but this is something you may encounter on ANY progressive equipment or process where quantity and speed are the #1 goal, not safety.

Unfortunately if it has happened before, unless your friends reloading mindset is readjusted- I do forecast it happening again in the future.

I will assert, however that weighing your final cartridges is not a fruitless endeavor.

Failing to weigh your components beforehand, although time consuming, DOES however make it a fruitless endeavor.

We have had a number of posts now where this comes up. Yes, bullet weight and case weight do vary- that is a given. They can however, if one is so inclined, be grouped into solid grain weight intervals.

Let me give another example, this time using the weights that have been provided:

45ACP (grains):

Group 1
94.6 PMC
94.0 CCI

Group 2
93.8 PMC
93.6 WCC 93
93.3 PMC
93.2 WIN

Group 3
92.9 WCC 99
92.9 SPEER
92.2 PMC

Group 4
91.0 CCI
90.9 FiocchiUSA

Group 5
89.7 CCI

Group 6
88.2 RP
88.1 BLAZER
88.1 CBC
88.0 WIN

Group 7
87.8 S&B
87.5 CCI
87.4 FEDERAL
87.0 BLAZER

Group 8
86.9 WIN
86.4 FEDERAL
86.3 RP
86.0 FiocchiUSA (Lg Primer)

Group 9
84.7 WCC 71

Group 10
82.9 STARLINE
82.5 STARLINE
82.7 WCC 80

Now, as we all know- 185 grain bullets ( just as an example) aren’t all 185.0 grains. Some will be higher, some lower. Yes, even those precision swagged bullets we all pride ourselves upon being perfect vary as well.

Some don’t think that difference matters.

This is more than likely the best instance I can find of where it does.

Sort your bullets by weight too… I sorted 500 of them the other afternoon…it did take time…yes, it did. But in preventing situations like these- I believe it to be time well spent. My bullets in that afternoons endeavor varied by up to 4 grains :banghead:

However, for arguments sake, we’ll say that all of the cartridges we are making today are using bullets that have been screened, and all weigh within the 185.0-185.9 gr weight.


In group 1, your brass weighs nominally 94 grains. Add 185 grains. That gives us 279 grains of components, not including the primer.

I’ve weighed a lot of primers. A lot. Most of them within a lot don’t vary by more than .3 grains. If you loaded 200 of them, and more than 1 of them was .5 grain higher than the rest I would be surprised, but please- do your own research.

In any event, this gives us 278 grains for group 2, 277 for group 3, and so on.

Applying a 4.5 grain charge to group 1 gives us a weight of 283.5 grains, plus a primer weighing 4 grains ( CCI LRP #300) for a total weight of 287.5 grains. 286.5 Grains for group 2, and so on.

Weighing the finished rounds within 1 grain is good enough for my tolerances….might not be good enough for .40 cal or 9mm…your tolerances are as tight as you want them….This method would however GUARANTEE catching a double charge. It would give suspect to ANY CARTRIDGE with more than 1 grain variance.

For those of you who reload in large enough groups to make it worthwhile, you could ( and I do ) simply tare your scales to each respective grain group…making weighing them far less of a time cumbersome task. It’ll zero out, or show you the difference….you then get to apply your own varying dose of reason if that difference is worth setting the round aside.

Now, is all that work really worth it ?

That’s a personal call. Given what can happen ( did this just happen ? ) when you don’t QC your own product, I’d say its time well spent.

Are there other ways to prevent what occurred to your friend in the first place ? Sure. Being attentive, knowing the equipment, not rushing…there’s an exhaustive list.

However, in the very end, if you can’t measure your finished results to some sort of standard- you better hope your process is 100%, 100% of the time.

If you don’t, and don’t have a halo, or a direct connection to some other higher power…you damn well better have a weapon that can handle that 1%, 100% of the time. I don’t know of any (people or weapons) that are 100%- 100% of the time, does anyone else ? (biblical or other religious figures excluded)

Now- it seems like a pretty significant step, this process. I'm fairly sure it would just be " way too much work" for what your friend is accustomed to... goodness knows I hear it from folks who aren't sitting on the couch all bandanged up. However, sulking whilst chewin on the crow pie is a great time to be reflective upon what got you chewing said delicious slice...and its always when I personally have the biggest ears on for ways to prevent it in the future....your mileage with this particular friend may of course, vary.

Weighing the cartridges, good process IMHO.

I don't want your thread to devolve into an argument about which process your friend should choose, or if the weighing cartridges thing works... so I'm gonna post this one and leave it at that without further comment.( some will smile and rave, and say thats impossible given some recent events/threads- but trust me it is ) This thread should be a heads up to anyone who reloads, and why safety is paramount however you arrive at it- and I won't distract from that further.

I know- it supposedly won't work for you guys who load 15,000 rounds a month, I know. That horse has been kicked to death thoroughly on previous dates. This incident doesn't involve that level of loading- however it is fairly indicative of a regular reloading session for most non-competitive folks.

Will it work for your friend or you ? Don't know. In the case of your friend though, if this step doesn't work- I'd find one that does....preferably before the next bench session- and your time to be a real friend and point that out is NOW.
 
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sorry blarb, that was still very skippable, :D

This guy sounds like my brother, as such, it probably won't be his last episode...

"Those who do not learn from experience, are forever condemned to repeat it"
 
When I had an RCBS Progressive, I would load Unique powder which would essentially fill the case.

There are about five different "rules" - if not MORE - to which your friend failed to adhere. When in DOUBT, DON'T is one of my favorites.

Another one, as others mentioned is, while reloading, if there is ANYTHING that has distracted you during any part of the process, consider those loads suspect with respect to any number of potential problems. It sounds like your friend is experienced just enough to be on the cocky side in that he is smarter than all the rules, he knows what he is doing!

If I ever reach a point where I feel I have so much confidence in myself that I can literally DISREGARD all rules and just "jam-away" at the press to get my 200 rounds loaded and to the range before dark - I hope that I have quit reloading BEFORE that would ever happen.

He could have shot 100 perfectly, then gone to load up his magazine with the bad ones to let his 'significant-other' shoot in an emergency, or even himself during a time of defending his life.

In reading this, I have learned one thing. No one is ever going to use my reloading equipment unless I am there instructing a first-time reloader and I am the one overseeing the entire operation. We all have checks and double-checks and even triple-checks for a reason, and that is SAFETY!

I prefer to load in batches. I have four Frankford Arsenal trays for each round I load (50 apiece). I am working on reloading 200 at a time. I complete one step before I move on to the next. All the steps are important, but one that gives me the willies more than any other is checking the powder levels in all the cases that I have thrown with the measure. Under extremely bright lighting, I scrutinize every row to be sure that every single case is filled exactly like all the others. If I had one case off, I would most likely dump the entire tray and start all over with that tray!

One of the very first rules of reloading is to not be in a hurry, at all! Another one is Do NOT be distracted by ANYTHING! It sounds like he was both in a hurry and he was distracted! He is very fortunate to have only ruined a gun. He could be blind today, or dead.:barf:
 
I'm going to try to borrow the gun today to get some pictures of it. However, university campuses having stupid rules I will have to go to his house to get it. I may not be able to make a trip to his house to pick it up.
 
blarby, I appreciate your post but let's do a "root cause" analysis that's more pertinent to this thread's "reloading safety practices" issue that new/less experienced reloaders to progressive press reloading can benefit from so events like this can be prevented.

The key questions to ask here are "Was this preventable, What caused it, What type of cause, and How can this be prevented in the future":

1. Was this event preventable? - Yes

2. If yes, then what caused it? - Reloader was distracted/frustrated and his focus shifted away from the usual reloading steps.

3. What type of cause (equipment, unsafe reloading practice or user error)? - For this reloader/incident, even if a different progressive press was used, same thing probably would have happened if he get distracted/frustrated again. Since his other rounds fired, this event was not dependent on equipment nor unsafe reloading practice he usually used. This event was caused by user error, specifically being distracted/frustrated.

4. What change would prevent this from happening in the future? - Since the cause of this event was user error, the user must change to eliminate distractions/frustration. If he can't do that, then reloading of ammunition must STOP when he gets distracted and/or frustrated.


When I help setup new reloaders to Pro 1000 progressive press, I provide them a checklist they post on the wall right in front of them and have them follow step-by-step. For some, I even color code different reloading step blocks so they can easily distinguish which block of reloading steps they are at.

When they come across any problem they cannot resolve readily, I tell them to clear the shell plate and take a deep breath/take a break and start over with station #1.

When the "friend" got distracted by a problem and got frustrated, had he cleared the shell plate and took a moment to calm down and started the progressive process over, this event probably could have been prevented.
 
^^^ Very good ^^^

The friend def. sounds like he needs some kind of a safety check.

Even though he's been around the block a few times...sometimes that just makes us complacent and allows our " knowledge and expertise" to generate some bad habits.
 
Weigh all your components and loaded ammo? That is plain crazy. How about don't reload if you don't know or can't follow good procedures.
 
Blarby, weighing cases and segregating by weight for a pistol caliber is not silly, its a waste of time. There will be absolutely no gain in accuracy from it. If there is no gain then the only reason would be to use it to weigh finished loads in case of a mistake, right? Why not just follow safe reloading practices?

There is no way that segregating cases by weight is worth it at all. What if you only have 80 cases that are at a certain weight? Are you going to label that case weight and only load those 80 in a single batch.

The argument is valid, you cannot weigh pistol cases to find a charging problem when the weight of charge is so small.
 
Great post Blarb and bds. This thread should encourage one to take a little time to go over their reloading practices and look for ways to inprove on safety procedures and quality control. glad nobody was badly hurt.
 
Usually when I get a primer stuck like that I HAVE to take the shell plate off. If I don't, powder will get sprayed all over the place and get in everything if I try to force it to work.
 
that gun would make a decent paper weight, and i had a topic about super light loads for my rifle, and now i under stand why they said a couple grains of pistol powder makes a big difference
 
testfire registration

I was trying to Register at Testfire so I could see the photos of the Blown Kahr but couldn't de-cipher the color coded alpha characters to finish the login procedure? Do I need 3-D night vision glasses or should I have a few more Manhattans?

I hope your friend wears Safety Glasses when shooting from now on!!!
 
well, the guy has been doing it for many more years than I have. Sadly he didn't tell me until afterward that he has done it before. Twice.
Does this mean he has blown up guns TWICE before the Kahr?? :what: :what:


By the way, the extractors are very simple to replace if you have an exploded diagram available so you can see the relationship of the three parts that make it up.

I had my K-9 fire out of battery once ( I still dont know exactly why it happened.... ), but anywho, I picked up the extractor parts off the floor at my feet, put them back in the following day and ran ( quite timidly I must admit) a couple mags through it.

Worked wonderfully that day and hasnt failed to function since.
 
I have a LnL and I've found that if I start having ejection problems it's because the shell plate need righting down. I just bought a RCBS lockout die after having a couple of squibs. I had one even using the Hornady powder check and thinking I was looking in each case too. I was loading 40 cal with Clays 3.5 gr. I'm waiting for a bullet shipment so haven't tried the lockout yet. But I don't want another squib!
 
Also, thetestfire.com was overrun with viagra trolls from russia. I had to delete all the forums because they were using up a TON of bandwith. Anyone know how to get rid of spammers for good?
 
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