Blown Primer in berthier

[Jessesky]

Hey guys,

I have a “Turkish Forrestry Carbine” used by the Turkish Forrest rangers against tree poachers. The rifle is a captured berthier with a Mauser end cap and shortened barrel, also it accepts “balle N” so should be good for modern pressures and bore diameter. I know these rifles were made with generous headspace for reliable chambering but still.

I fired the shot and there was a lot of gas that escaped from the action and into my face a little. I knew something was up. I struggled to get the bolt open. When I pulled the casing there was a blown and pierced primer and enough blowback to break the extractor and tear off part of the boltface rim. I bought a new bolt head but don’t want to fire again until I figure out what happened. The shoulder of the case is a little blown out but not more than is expected from a generous WWI reamed chamber

 

[troy fairweather]

to much headspace

 

[boom boom]

Hey guys,

I have a “Turkish Forrestry Carbine” used by the Turkish Forrest rangers against tree poachers. The rifle is a captured berthier with a Mauser end cap and shortened barrel, also it accepts “balle N” so should be good for modern pressures and bore diameter. I know these rifles were made with generous headspace for reliable chambering but still.

I fired the shot and there was a lot of gas that escaped from the action and into my face a little. I knew something was up. I struggled to get the bolt open. When I pulled the casing there was a blown and pierced primer and enough blowback to break the extractor and tear off part of the boltface rim. I bought a new bolt head but don’t want to fire again until I figure out what happened. The shoulder of the case is a little blown out but not more than is expected from a generous WWI reamed chamber

Are you firing old surplus ammo? You may also have a firing pin that is too sharp (needs dressing into proper shape) or too long. If you include pictures of the brass, that would be helpful.

 

[Jessesky]

Are you firing old surplus ammo? You may also have a firing pin that is too sharp (needs dressing into proper shape) or too long. If you include pictures of the brass, that would be helpful.

I’ll get photos of the brass, I’m firing PPU so not overpowered or oversized.

 

[243winxb]

Balle N ammo can only be fired from any Lebel or Berthier rifle if the chamber has been reamed to accept the larger neck of the N cartridge. Such weapons are stamped N on top of the barrel, just in front of the receiver and behind the rear sight.

A tight neck would cause high pressure. May need a chamber cast to know?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/8×50mmR_Lebel

 

[243winxb]

Hard bolt opening at end of video. Looks like a wall hanger to me.

 

[Jessesky]

to much headspace

I know I would usually attribute it to that, but these rifles are known to run of

Hard bolt opening at end of video. Looks like a wall hanger to me.

its no Mauser haha, but I like the story behind it

 

[Mowgli Terry]

Ammo?

 

[gpb]

An interesting "Forgotten Weapons" episode on the Turkish Berthiers (tree poacher rifles). The ammo and "N" conversion is discussed during the last few minutes of the video. It seems that even the "experts" can be confused by the conversion, or lack of.

 

[Jessesky]

An interesting "Forgotten Weapons" episode on the Turkish Berthiers (tree poacher rifles). The ammo and "N" conversion is discussed during the last few minutes of the video. It seems that even the "experts" can be confused by the conversion, or lack of.

Interestingly enough, mine is stamped “N” on the shank. And the ammo I was shooting was PPU, they typically err on the side of caution. I guess the next thing to do is slug the bore, take a chamber casting and install the new bolt head. Good video

 

[Jessesky]

 

[Mowgli Terry]

Looks like you may need to have a discussion with PPU.

 

[troy fairweather]

u an see in the photo the headspace is massive. hen u fire any cartridge the primer gets pushed back the the case i driven back reseating the primer. hen u got to much headpace the primer will not seat and u ill blow it.

 

[Jessesky]

u an see in the photo the headspace is massive. hen u fire any cartridge the primer gets pushed back the the case i driven back reseating the primer. hen u got to much headpace the primer will not seat and u ill blow it.

Absolutely, but I’m not sure what step to take at this point. I’m not going to set the barrel back to headspace an old milsurp with sights soldered on. Also every berthier, Lebel, or Enfield I’ve shot has had the cartridge brass expand to very generous chambers and never have a problem. The chambers were intemtionally cut generously by the military and soldiers rifles weren’t detonating. What may my options be?

I’m trying to learn and understand. For example, excessive headspace can cause problems like we’ve seen above. I have a few Ackley cartridges which in a pinch can fire standard cartridges. My 30-30 Ackley headspaces off the rim, just like the Lebel. Why is it I can fireform full power 30-30 but not 8mm Lebel when they both headspace off the rim?

Thanks guys!

 

[243winxb]

"The 8×50mmR Lebel (8mm Lebel) (designated as the 8 × 51 R Lebel by the C.I.P.[1]) " ? From above link.
You need to find the working pressure for both of the above cartridges and why the CIP uses the different 51R designation???

Your photos show, to me, a high pressure event. Very dangerous.

The 303 has sloppy chambers like your rifle. Some reloaders will buy custom dies to match the fired brass or neck size only. When there is excessive chamber headspace, the stretching causes separation of the brass. Also very dangerous in old guns.

I would not fire the rifle. Rifle needs checked over by a professional and if they give the ok, use reduced pressure hand load.

 

[troy fairweather]

Absolutely, but I’m not sure what step to take at this point. I’m not going to set the barrel back to headspace an old milsurp with sights soldered on. Also every berthier, Lebel, or Enfield I’ve shot has had the cartridge brass expand to very generous chambers and never have a problem. The chambers were intemtionally cut generously by the military and soldiers rifles weren’t detonating. What may my options be?

I’m trying to learn and understand. For example, excessive headspace can cause problems like we’ve seen above. I have a few Ackley cartridges which in a pinch can fire standard cartridges. My 30-30 Ackley headspaces off the rim, just like the Lebel. Why is it I can fireform full power 30-30 but not 8mm Lebel when they both headspace off the rim?

Thanks guys!

if u tape a dime to the rim of a unfired case will chamber

 

[243winxb]

http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=2&cartridge_type_id=2 Looks like the 8 x 51 R Lebel is lower pressure vs the 8 x 50 R??

All very confusing. Good luck, be safe.

 

[Jessesky]

if u tape a dime to the rim of a unfired case will chamber

I don’t understand how you mean? If you talking about to take up the excess slop in the chamber I don’t think that would work with a cartridge that headspaces off the rim

 

[boom boom]

http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=2&cartridge_type_id=2 Looks like the 8 x 51 R Lebel is lower pressure vs the 8 x 50 R??

All very confusing. Good luck, be safe.

The 8x50r is the Austrian-Habsburg WWI loading for their m95 Steyr Mannlichers which is a different round than the 8x51r Lebel (however, like the Finn Mosin 7.62x53r versus the Ruski 7.62x54r ammo) the 8x51r is often sold as 8x50r Lebel to distinguish it from the Austrian cartridge. The Lebel being an older design than the Steyr-Mannlicher by nearly a decade, had lower pressure levels because of use in the old 1886 and 1886/93 Lebel rifles.

 

[troy fairweather]

I don’t understand how you mean? If you talking about to take up the excess slop in the chamber I don’t think that would work with a cartridge that headspaces off the rim

this is just to check the headspce u can make shims out of soda cans to find your real headspace,

 

[boom boom]

I don’t understand how you mean? If you talking about to take up the excess slop in the chamber I don’t think that would work with a cartridge that headspaces off the rim

Jessesky,
If this is the first time that you have shot the rifle and it did this, then have it checked by a gunsmith--it could even be defective ammo.

Alternatively, if you wanted to first check for excess headspace,
Long and short, if you have a friend who does precision machining, have them make up a washer that is exactly the no-go thickness for the Lebel which will allow you to check headspace or do a chamber cast.

I would also use calipers to make sure that the rim of the ammo is to spec. Ammo does vary on rimmed cases and if you were at maximum field and loaded a thin rimmed cartridge below spec, then the rifle now has excessive headspace because of the ammo. BTW, you should have a N on the barrel as well as the receiver ring so the barrel may not be a balle N capable barrel. There are some other barrel and chamber issues that could also be present so do not fire this rifle until it is checked out.

Old rifles do not handle escaped gas that well and the primary way for the Lebel and Berthiers was through the rimmed case design-excess headspace defeats that design. You were lucky not to be injured from the looks of things.

 

[troy fairweather]

Jessesky,
If this is the first time that you have shot the rifle and it did this, then have it checked by a gunsmith--it could even be defective ammo.

Alternatively, if you wanted to first check for excess headspace,
Long and short, if you have a friend who does precision machining, have them make up a washer that is exactly the no-go thickness for the Lebel which will allow you to check headspace or do a chamber cast.

I would also use calipers to make sure that the rim of the ammo is to spec. Ammo does vary on rimmed cases and if you were at maximum field and loaded a thin rimmed cartridge below spec, then the rifle now has excessive headspace because of the ammo. BTW, you should have a N on the barrel as well as the receiver ring so the barrel may not be a balle N capable barrel. There are some other barrel and chamber issues that could also be present so do not fire this rifle until it is checked out.

Old rifles do not handle escaped gas that well and the primary way for the Lebel and Berthiers was through the rimmed case design-excess headspace defeats that design. You were lucky not to be injured from the looks of things.

what boom,boom said

 

[Jessesky]

Jessesky,
If this is the first time that you have shot the rifle and it did this, then have it checked by a gunsmith--it could even be defective ammo.

Alternatively, if you wanted to first check for excess headspace,
Long and short, if you have a friend who does precision machining, have them make up a washer that is exactly the no-go thickness for the Lebel which will allow you to check headspace or do a chamber cast.

I would also use calipers to make sure that the rim of the ammo is to spec. Ammo does vary on rimmed cases and if you were at maximum field and loaded a thin rimmed cartridge below spec, then the rifle now has excessive headspace because of the ammo. BTW, you should have a N on the barrel as well as the receiver ring so the barrel may not be a balle N capable barrel. There are some other barrel and chamber issues that could also be present so do not fire this rifle until it is checked out.

Old rifles do not handle escaped gas that well and the primary way for the Lebel and Berthiers was through the rimmed case design-excess headspace defeats that design. You were lucky not to be injured from the looks of things.

Good to note, I do not have an N stamp on the barrel. Only the receiver. Sometimes these things can get so lost in translation even after doing lots of research on it. I’ll check for that

 

[Jessesky]

Jessesky,
If this is the first time that you have shot the rifle and it did this, then have it checked by a gunsmith--it could even be defective ammo.

Alternatively, if you wanted to first check for excess headspace,
Long and short, if you have a friend who does precision machining, have them make up a washer that is exactly the no-go thickness for the Lebel which will allow you to check headspace or do a chamber cast.

I would also use calipers to make sure that the rim of the ammo is to spec. Ammo does vary on rimmed cases and if you were at maximum field and loaded a thin rimmed cartridge below spec, then the rifle now has excessive headspace because of the ammo. BTW, you should have a N on the barrel as well as the receiver ring so the barrel may not be a balle N capable barrel. There are some other barrel and chamber issues that could also be present so do not fire this rifle until it is checked out.

Old rifles do not handle escaped gas that well and the primary way for the Lebel and Berthiers was through the rimmed case design-excess headspace defeats that design. You were lucky not to be injured from the looks of things.

Follow up, I will note, that I have no issue chambering a round of Balle N in my rifle, while in the forgotten weapons video balle N has much resistance chambering in a Balle D chamber. But this could also be due to excessive headspace. Thanks for the help guys

 

[boom boom]

Good to note, I do not have an N stamp on the barrel. Only the receiver. Sometimes these things can get so lost in translation even after doing lots of research on it. I’ll check for that

The Turks were not known for light use of their firearms and someone somewhere could have swapped barrels over time.