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Bolt action rifles with high cap mags

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Terry Vincent, Jul 31, 2019.

  1. Terry Vincent

    Terry Vincent Member

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    Is there any legal research regarding bolt action rifles using twenty round mags (i.e., Ruger Ranch Rifles), being legal for import into Cal, NY, MA, etc,. I can only find legal application to semi auto center fire rifles with detachable mags being regulated to ten round mags, and no mention of bolt action rifles using “high cap” mags. Would a bolt action rifle using a twenty round detachable mag be illegal when crossing the border of these states banning semi auto rifles using high cap mags?
     
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  2. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    You can travel through a ban state with those magazines and a semi auto or bolt action as long as they're legal in the the state you're coming from and the state you're going to. So, crossing the border would be legal as long as your destination is not in the ban state. That's obviously the simplified version.
     
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  3. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    The recently-proposed AWB in Virginia would apply to over-ten-round magazines and feeding devices, as an independent banned category. The legal status of the firearm with which they were to be used would be irrelevant. Therefore we would have the paradoxical situation in which machine guns would remain legal (the proposed AWB would apply only to semiautomatic guns), but the feeding devices for machine guns would be felonies.
     
  4. P5 Guy

    P5 Guy Member

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  5. RickD427

    RickD427 Member

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    Gents,

    Don't place too much faith in the Firearm Owner's Protection Act (FOPA - 18 USC 926A). It looks good on paper, but it's really no more than a "Paper Tiger."

    A few years back, two gents were arrested while transporting firearms between places where legal, and through a place where they were not (in this case, properties of the New York and New Jersey Port Authority). Both were arrested and they sued for damages resulting from their false arrest. The Second Circuit held that they had no right to sue, and the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear the case.
     
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  6. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    To answer your question with out asking you 100 more questions, in CA the rifle would be fine but the mag wouldn't.

    In CA, the mag is its own issue all by itself.

    Introducing a semiauto into the picture could make for a really.... really.. bad day (how bad would depend on the rifle and it's configuration)

    Introducing a bolt action into the pic wouldn't make a difference.
     
  7. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    Yes, and the NRA traded the Hughes Amendment machine gun ban for the toothless FOPA. I was furious at them at the time, and I'm still furious at them for doing that. Biggest mistake the NRA ever made. But the NRA has a pattern of throwing MG owners under the bus, going all the way back to 1934.
     
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  8. RickD427

    RickD427 Member

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    I can only address California law on this one. I'm not familiar with the statutes in the other states.

    In California, it makes no difference whether the magazine is for use in a semi-auto firearm, or in a manually cycled weapon such as a bolt-action.

    California defines a "Large-Capacity Magazine" as " any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds" with exceptions for magazines permanently altered to hold 10 rounds or less, and for tubular magazines in .22 LR and for lever-action firearms. There is no mention of semi-auto in the definition, but the exclusion of tubular magazines in lever-action firearms indicates a legislative intent to include other forms of manually cycled firearms. This definition is also unique in that it includes ammunition belts. As written, it pretty much makes all disintegrating belts "large-capacity magazines" because of the ability to add extra links into the belt.

    The penalty provisions for manufacture and possession of large-capacity magazines address only the magazine itself. There are no provisions limiting the penalty to cases where the magazine is used in a semi-auto.

    Please note that enforcement of California's statute proscribing the simple possession of large-capacity magazines has been enjoined by a federal court pending a lawsuit challenging the statute. Provisions of the statute regarding the manufacture, sale and importation of large-capacity magazines remain in effect, as does the statute authorizing the non-criminal seizure of such magazines as "Nuisance" items.
     
  9. toivo

    toivo Member

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    That is the case in NY. Here it is against the law to possess a magazine with a capacity of more than 10 rounds even if you don't possess the firearm that goes with it. Interestingly (and stupidly) the law exempts tubular magazines for .22 rimfire only. Therefore, the lever-action Henry Varmint Express in .17 HMR is illegal because its tube can hold 11 rounds. In fact, even if you had the tube alone, without the rifle, you could still be charged with possession of a "large capacity ammunition feeding device."

    I have yet to hear an explanation from anyone as to how this makes anyone the slightest bit safer. The sheer idiocy of it all is astounding.
     
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  10. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    the "sheer idiocy" came to mind the last two nights of political debates.... but that's our system...

    No, I'm not surprised when folks adamantly opposed to firearms, that aren't particularly familiar with them at all, come up with legislation that doesn't exactly make sense....
     
  11. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    The ignorance of the antigunners is made worse, because of the refusal of the pro-gun side to dialogue with them. If there was such a dialogue, perhaps some of these egregious technical issues could be avoided. Don't get me wrong. Stonewalling is a viable strategy, as long as you have the votes to defeat the antigunners. If they have the votes, however, it's time to reassess the strategy.
     
  12. Terry Vincent

    Terry Vincent Member

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    Sooo, a Ruger Ranch rifle with a threaded muzzle, and a detachable mag of any round count would be illegal in NY according to the NYSA because it possesses two features that identify it as an assault weapon even though it is a bolt action rifle that is said to be exempt and not an AW?

    Anyone interested in taking the Ruger across NY’s state line to find out the answer?
     
  13. Terry Vincent

    Terry Vincent Member

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    Oops, should have read the fine print. NYSA specifies semiauto rifles with detachable mag and one feature. Guess the ranch rifle would be OK.

    Sorry for the confusion!
     
  14. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  15. toivo

    toivo Member

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    No, you were right the first time. Detachable mag and one feature makes it an "assault weapon" and therefore banned. Grandfathered if possessed before the "SAFE" Act and registered by the deadline, but it can no longer be transferred in-state and no new ones can be brought into the state.

    Semi-auto rifles with a detachable mag can no longer have any features in this state.

    EDIT TO ADD: I can see where it can be confusing. One feature is allowed, but the detachable mag is considered a feature. Add anything else, and it's a two-featured no-no: adjustable stock, pistol grip, threaded muzzle, etc.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
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  16. jrmiddleton425

    jrmiddleton425 Member

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    This is what the law is, as enacted by the NYS legislature:

    https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2013/s2230

    22. "Assault weapon" means:

    (A) A SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLE THAT HAS AN ABILITY TO ACCEPT A DETACHABLE
    MAGAZINE AND HAS AT LEAST ONE OF THE FOLLOWING CHARACTERISTICS:
    (I) A FOLDING OR TELESCOPING STOCK;
    (II) A PISTOL GRIP THAT PROTRUDES CONSPICUOUSLY BENEATH THE ACTION OF
    THE WEAPON;
    (III) A THUMBHOLE STOCK;
    (IV) A SECOND HANDGRIP OR A PROTRUDING GRIP THAT CAN BE HELD BY THE
    NON-TRIGGER HAND;
    (V) A BAYONET MOUNT;
    (VI) A FLASH SUPPRESSOR, MUZZLE BREAK, MUZZLE COMPENSATOR, OR THREADED
    BARREL DESIGNED TO ACCOMMODATE A FLASH SUPPRESSOR, MUZZLE BREAK, OR
    MUZZLE COMPENSATOR;
    (VII) A GRENADE LAUNCHER;

    (G) PROVIDED, HOWEVER, THAT SUCH TERM DOES NOT INCLUDE:
    (I) ANY RIFLE, SHOTGUN OR PISTOL THAT (A) IS MANUALLY OPERATED BY
    BOLT, PUMP, LEVER OR SLIDE ACTION
    ; (B) HAS BEEN RENDERED PERMANENTLY
    INOPERABLE; OR (C) IS AN ANTIQUE FIREARM AS DEFINED IN 18 U.S.C.
    921(A)(16);

    Note the text I bolded. A rifle MUST be a detachable magazine semi-auto for the SAFE Act to apply. Magazines are not an assault weapon feature, but are, in and of themselves, restricted to ten rounds, with exceptions covered in posts above.
     
  17. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    NJ law has no stipulations as far as action. The only caveat is tubular magazines for 22 rimfire ONLY

    Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container which is capable of holding more than 10 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm. The term shall not include an attached tubular device which is capable of holding only .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.

    I just had to pour over NJ law for a friend of mine there and what magazines he had to get rid of. He was hoping a Savage bolt action 22 would be legal, but isn't.
     
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  18. toivo

    toivo Member

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    You are correct -- I was wrong. My point was to address the common misconception that in NY you are allowed to have one feature on a semi-auto rifle with a detachable mag. That was the old law: one feature = OK, two features = banned. According to the SAFE Act, you cannot have even one feature on a semi-auto with a detachable magazine.

    The reference was to a Ruger Ranch Rifle with a threaded barrel. That is an illegal gun according to the SAFE Act. Grandfathered if you possessed it before 2013 and registered it by the deadline, but otherwise verboten.

    The bolded portions above seem to contradict each other. If NJ law does in fact stipulate semi-auto only, then it is more lenient than NY law. It could, however, be very tricky to apply, since I can think of several examples of magazines that will fit interchangeably between manual-action rifles and autoloading rifles.
     
  19. Terry Vincent

    Terry Vincent Member

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    States with laws addressing magazine limitations (10 rounds) and an AWB that defines the rifle/shotgun as illegal because of its features and its semi-auto capability tests the constitutionality of their acts when they allow rifles/shotguns with no “features” and are semi-automatic designs. I.e., would a Ruger Mini-14/30 with wood stock, no flash suppressor, or threaded barrel be exempt from the AWB laws in these states?

    In other words, what are the legislatures thinking of when passing these laws? A quick look at the US map shows these states are very dark blue and locked-stepped into their anti 2nd Amendment ideologies. I may have just answered my last question!

    What about the long range bolt action platforms incorporating pistol grips, threaded barrels, detachable magazines and adjustable stocks? How does the functioning of the rifle, in these legislatures’ minds relegate the semi-auto rifle as illegal, simply because it uses gas to function?

    Our legal system ought to be addressing these issues regarding the constitutional basis of these laws in a timely manner.
     
  20. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    In CA, the mini with a wood stock is legal.

    Throw a folding or even a collapsible stock on it and it becomes an AW. Pin the collapsible stock and back to being legal it is.

    Senseless.
     
  21. toivo

    toivo Member

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    In New York, yes it would be. A "featureless" Mini-14 is completely legal here.

    Again, perfectly legal in New York.

    As for the "why," all I can tell you is that these are the attempts of the anti-gun brigade to define what an "assault weapon" is. It has nothing to do with the actual "dangers" of the features themselves. I've had an anti try to tell me with a straight face that pistol grips and barrel shrouds make a rifle more dangerous: "Ergonomics enhance lethality." My response to that is that then they should try to pass legislation that all rifle stocks should be made of two-by-fours embedded with glass shards.
     
  22. FlSwampRat

    FlSwampRat Member

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    Someone once asked me to consider how much of our lives are ruled by lines and colors. I thought about the white lines and yellow lines on roadways. Red, green and yellow traffic lights. Blue parking places for handicapped. But these lines are all by mutually agreeable needs for common usage of the roadways, etc.
    The lines drawn by legislators relating to guns are not by any stretch of the imagination mutually agreed upon by the users. For example, the bayonet lug. How does it make a rifle more dangerous to add the option to use it as a spear?
    I know I haven't phrased the above in the most elegant way possible, just rather steamed at all the silliness in the laws.

    I couldn't agree more.
     
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  23. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

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    A Mini 14 is legal but an AR 15 isn't. They shoot the same ammunition, they are both semi-automatic, they both have standard capacity magazines that hold 30 rounds. One is black and scary, the other is wooded and friendly...BUT if that same Mini 14 has a threaded barrel it's illegal.

    Makes no sense at all.
     
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  24. FlSwampRat

    FlSwampRat Member

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    While having lunch I happened to read over some quotes by Will Rogers. Things like "Those who complain about the high cost of government should be glad we’re not getting all the government we’re paying for."
    Sure wish he was around today, it would be fun to see what he made of our current government.
     
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  25. Quiet

    Quiet Member

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    Makes sense, after you realize that during the 1980s-1990s, Bill Ruger traded support for assault weapons bans for exemptions to it for the Ruger Mini-14/30.
     
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