Bolt Target Rifle

[utvolsfan77]

While I know there are really accurate rifles and some great shooters out there, I'm a bit confused. If any particular rifle gets 1/2" groups at 100 yards, how can it possibly get 1/2" groups at 500 yards as well? From my understanding of minute of angle (MOA), this should be impossible.

 

[taliv]

utvol, i think it's actually poor shooting at 100 that is the problem. parallax on the scope is really important at 100, but not so much at 500. the target is smaller, so there's a lot of 'aim small miss small' going on. a better way to say that is they're aiming big and missing big at 100. and it's also mental. they can see their holes at 100, get excited and pull a shot. at 500, they can't see their holes, and so they tend not to make the same mental errors.

pete d, yep, the 600 yd ibs record was shot on my home range a couple years ago. we talked about it quite a lot on THR. I shot a match at brock's gap in January. great range.

 

[CB900F]

Utvolsfan77;

Shooting is not a determinate, linear, function. There are variables and sometimes they stack up in your favor. At that point an outstanding group can occur at a given distance. But, it's a single group and reproduction is not possible unless some insanely long odds are bucked. To truly find out just how accurate a shooter/gun combination is, a valid statistical data run of targets must be produced, not a single instance.

Or, to put it another way, anybody can get lucky once. However, repeatability means that luck is no longer a factor.

900F

 

[Cee Zee]

I can even imagine 1 inch. Half inch groups at 500 yards seem about as common as unicorns that poop jellybeans!

I thought all unicorns... Never mind.

I did get a 1 inch group at 500 yards though. But I can't imagine doing it again any time soon. Conditions were perfect for one thing. There wasn't even a tiny breeze blowing. I had no distractions, I had a nice rifle and good ammo. And I was lucky as all get out. As others have said slightly bigger groups are fairly common but a 1" group is possible and so is a .5" group. No it isn't very probable but I learned a long time ago to never say never.

It was my brother that taught that to me. He had a knack of doing things you would swear were impossible and he could even teach you how to do such things. He seems to be tuned in to something everyone else is missing. I'd give examples but I've already had my abuse for the day. Well maybe one.

He convinced me I could kill the mice running across the floor on the other side of the living room from our couch by throwing my drum sticks at them (I was in the band and had to practice a lot at the time). I thought he was crazy until he convinced me to try it for a while. After about 100 throws I nailed one. It was running full speed from one mouse hole to another. We would of course eventually get rid of the mice but we were country kids and stuff like that didn't bother us much. But after I killed the first one I started hitting them on a regular basis and within a week I was hitting every one of them. I was nailing their heads against the baseboard with the end of my drum stick and they were DRT. Yeah I know. I can hardly believe it myself and I did it. I even threw a drumstick under a chair and nailed a mouse running behind that chair. That was about the time dad noticed all the dents in the baseboard. I had killed maybe 10 mice that way.

I still am freaked out by that to this day. My brother just knew it could be done. He never doubted it. He would spout something about Indians doing stuff like that all the time and he was right. They did. They killed their food by throwing rocks quite often. Humans can do things they don't know they can do. I can name a dozen things like that my brother showed me (mostly stuff he did). But he always knew what was possible and what wasn't. Since then I have been hesitant to doubt people. I've seen him hit a gallon jug size target from 350 yards with a .22 on the first try. I saw him shoot a ground hog 700 yards away on the first try with a rifle he had never shot before. He did asked the owner of the rifle how to aim it. It was DRT. He had me shooting bats with him using .22's. We hardly missed any at all.

But there were other things besides shooting. We did 5 360 degree slides (all at once - not one at a time) on 6 inches of snow on a two lane street with cars parked on both sides. He just said "watch this" and we did it. We started with one then did 2 and before knew it he was doing it over and over and he never come close to dinging a car. It was in Lexington KY in Cardinal Vally. i can show you the spot on Google maps where he did it.

It's like he was tuned in to something the whole rest of the world was missing. Some people can just do weird things. I know about a girl that can walk to any wild animal and pick it up and pet it. Birds, skunks, you name it - she'll pick it up and pet it and the critters won't even try to get away. I know a guy that kept mountain lions as pets too. He ran a small zoo. he would get in the cage and pet them as long as the cats weren't freaked out by the people there watching. I saw that happen. Very strange. I've seen people adopt all sorts of wild animals that normally are going to do anything to get away from people. Deer, crows - an owl. I've seen them all as pets as gentle as lambs. That guy that dies and left a bunch of wild animals running loose put an end to all that in Ohio though. He had bear and lions running all over the place.

There are some strange things in this life. I just never say never.

 

[huntinfool87]

COLOSHOOTER the target was a 2" circle but just to make you happy here is a 3" group same gun same box of shells this was done with 1 mph wind I only shot 3 times due to the fact it was the last 3 rounds of that ammo. The yardage is 489 yards. I really don't care if you believe this or not I shoot the computations with this same gun and load with the same success... So just because your not able to do this doesn't mean it can't be done.

 

[huntinfool87]

The scope is mounted high because of the bell of the scope didn't clear with my med. Rings. Yes I made my own cheek piece to go under the the strap on pouch. Your absolutely correct about the stock but it was nothing that shams and epoxy couldn't fix I also blue printed the action and lapped the rings. The flash suppressor is on there because the cap for the threads was missing when I bought the gun and this is all I had to protect the threads. I can't seem to shoot 1000 yards with it it doesn't seem to stabilize the round much past 800 yards.

 

[Cee Zee]

I watched it several times, paused a bunch and, if you say so. Couldn't prove it by me.

I managed to capture this image from the video just after the second shot. I could try to look for the shots later in the video but I found this and wanted to post it now. I can work on it more and find the way the target looks after all the shots if it's wanted. But it's pretty clear that there were 2 its in the colored area that show up as white spots. One shot appears to be dead center with the other off to the left. It's actually in the lower area of the paint but it's hard to see that from this view. I had others to look at. It's clearly within the 2" group size the guy who posted the video claimed. Again I have a lot of software to deal with video (I did video for a living for a while) so I can probably get more proof. I can post it here if anyone is interested.

OK I went ahead and did some more work. I found this which "appears" to show that there are several shots grouped together in a cloverleaf. This doesn't appear as clear because they had their camera zoomed out further when they shot the video at this point. It would be consistent with the above image though. The two spots above appear to be in the same area of this group.

It's pretty hard to get a good view of this without a ton of work. I based my initial views on the way the target moved as much as anything. Those are the things I've learned to look for as a shooter. That would be hard to show without posting actual video and reducing it to slow motion. I can do that and maybe I'll get to it soon. But it might not be conclusive either. I just know what I "think" these images show.

 

[coloradokevin]

the target was a 2" circle but just to make you happy here is a 3" group same gun same box of shells this was done with 1 mph wind I only shot 3 times due to the fact it was the last 3 rounds of that ammo. The yardage is 489 yards. I really don't care if you believe this or not I shoot the computations with this same gun and load with the same success... So just because your not able to do this doesn't mean it can't be done.

Okay, I'm sorry, but you can call me skeptical as well. I was going to let it go, but you've kind of dug your heels in on this one.

I also shoot competitions, and haven't yet run across anyone who can regularly shoot 1/2" groups at 500 yards, at least outside of the top tier of bench rest shooters (and that's an entirely different game, where these things still aren't "regularly" accomplished). You claim to be doing this with a $600 off the shelf Remington rifle that you just bought, you claim you've done it in multiple groups, and you also label yourself as new to long range shooting.

Honestly, if you can print multiple groups like that at 500 yards, someone ought to be paying you to do your shooting on the competition circuit. I know of at least three experienced long range shooters in this thread, and none of them claim to be able to do this. One of those shooters also happens to be someone I've relied on for many years in engagements where bullets are moving in both directions.

The only reason I mention any of this is because of the fact that I think the Internet gives people a false impression of what good shooting is. People read unproven and grandiose claims online, then think they aren't very good at shooting when they can't repeat the impossible on the range with their own rifle. Mind you, I'm not saying that your claim is impossible, I'm merely saying that it is very, very improbable. I know I can't do it, and maybe that means you're merely a better shooter than me (and the rest of us). But, it seems very, very unlikely.

Why would I say such a thing? Well, some of the records shown on this site might explain my skepticism. They may be shooting another 100 yards out, but they're also the record breakers in the sport that was built around printing the smallest possible groups:

http://internationalbenchrest.com/records/index.php

Or this story about a recent record in bench rest shooting:

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek051.html

Bottom line? I have no dog in this fight. I'm certainly glad to hear that you like your rifle, and I know a few people who have been happy with that model. The gun is certainly worth the cost of owning one. Still, if you can do as you say, you ought to call Remington and ask them to start paying for your ammo and your match entry fees. If not, it's really no bother to me either way.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

Huntinfool, I never said it can't be done it's just not very likely especially with a factory remington 700. It is also possible that conditions were perfect and you pull off one amazing group but it is not likely to be done on a regular basis. If your groups are for real that is bench rest level shooting right there and could probably win you a bench rest open match with a sub $1k gun. That would be very impressive!

What ammo do you use since you said your box of shells won't get you to 1k?
Do you shoot off a rest or bipod?
Do you shoot with a rear support?
What conditions were these shot in?
What competitions do you shoot? Should I expect to see you at the hide cup this year?

If you can repeat these groups I would love to see it. Nebraska is not far depending on where you are at. I will take you out to a range with targets laser ranged out to 1250 and will record you shooting to prove it to everyone. There is a hotel about 15 minutes from the property we shoot on as well. I will pay for the hotel if you prove me wrong and shoot a couple sub inch groups at 500. We can also work on getting you past 1000 because we do a lot of shooting at that distance too. BTW the range is in Brighton Colorado if you're interested.

 

[huntinfool87]

I never said it was a regular thing as a matter of fact it took me 2 boxes of shells to bet the 3 shot group that I last posted. The gun isn't just a $600 rifle off of the shelf I put $$$ and a lot of time into fixing the stock problems also had the action worked on (by a gun Smith) to gain more accuracy. I have gone to 4 long range and 3 standard shooting classes my dad was a marine sniper and my uncle was gunnery sergeant both of witch taught me to shoot and hunt. I'm new to the long range yes and what I mean by that is I have only been doing this for a couple years. I run into ppl all the time that claim it can't be done and that's fine I'm not here to show off it was more to encourage someone in building a rifle. If I understood you correctly you where in or are in the service for that I'd like to say thank you and I do not take my freedom for granite. I have a friend that a surgeon precision rifle and although past 500 yards he will out shoots me every time but inside of 500 i can hang right there with his $3000 + gun.

 

[huntinfool87]

I use blackhills 168gr. Bthp. And on this small groups I use a led sled using a bipod and sand bag in the toe I can only get 5"-6" groups. Please read all of the post this is NOT a factory rifle! I have put time and $$$ into that junk stock and I also had the action worked over by a gun Smith. I think the stability issues I'm having past 800 yards is due to only having a 20" barrel. But I'm not sure on that I ha e also tried 168. Gr. A max with the same issues. And it very well could be me or my formula. Those are by far the best groups I have ever shot and are not something I can do regularly.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

It's not the 20" barrel at all. I shoot my 20" tube past 1000 quite often. It's actually your ammo choice 168's are unstable when they go transsonic. The 175smk's are much better at distance. I don't have a lead sled and only shoot off a bipod, pack or barricades and can ring steel at 1000 consistently. I'll be shooting the Snipers Hide Cup this year in Weldona Colorado, a PRS match, if you want to check out a great competition.

 

[d2wing]

Like Pete and others have said, we have some internet world class shooters that have factory rifles that shoot record groups or better in their back yard. I would also like to see them in real sanctioned competition. Imagine how the record books will look. Yup we have some notable frequent unicorn shooters here. It makes it hard to get realistic information and gives the unwary unrealistic ideas.

 

[taliv]

i wish i could shoot in competitions like i shoot in the backyard!

 

[huntinfool87]

d2wing believe what you want.

 

[coloradokevin]

I think the stability issues I'm having past 800 yards is due to only having a 20" barrel. But I'm not sure on that I ha e also tried 168. Gr. A max with the same issues. And it very well could be me or my formula. Those are by far the best groups I have ever shot and are not something I can do regularly.

Do you know your muzzle velocity and atmospherics?

If you're shooting the Black Hills 168 grain out of a 20" barrel you're probably carrying a muzzle velocity in the 2550 fps range (plus or minus a bit — this is guesstimated without a chronograph). If I make an assumption that you're shooting with a density altitude of 3,000 feet MSL, and temperatures of 72 degrees F, it looks like you would go subsonic with that load before reaching 1,000 yards.

Again, the variables matter here, but a rough estimate in my ballistic calculator puts that load below the speed of sound around 950 yards. Bullets do weird things when they go transonic.

 

[huntinfool87]

I haven't tried anything bigger than the 168. Gr. But I will give it a shot it's very frustrating when at 700 yards I can hit a 6" gong but at 800 yards I can't get any kind of consistency. And as for these records ever I one is so obsessed with I know for a fact I saw it with my own eyes 2 years ago a girl shot a 3 shot group at .410" at 600 yards in competition the target still hangs in the lodge at alda shooting range.

 

[huntinfool87]

Here is what my chrony said this is the notes I made with this shots the second time. Looks like my average mv was 2568.

 

[huntinfool87]

Now I can't seem to get the pic to load.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

It's not being obsessed with records. I am absolutely not a bench rest shooter and would be completely uncomfortable shooting from a rest. Still I respect the bench rest guys who can shoot the sub half 600 yard groups. They put a lot of effort into prepping their rifles and making absolutely perfect hand loads. These guys are spending big money and an awful lot of time on their sport to get those records. To see a guy come in with a budget rifle and factory ammo claim to match their best record setting groups throws up red flags for people who are experienced shooters. There are so many fish stories that have seen new shooters get discouraged when they can't shoot as good as everyone on the Internet, when they actually shoot very well. Btw What sort of competition do you shoot?

 

[huntinfool87]

I have only shot 2 competitions they where 600 yards timed 10 shots and unknown range shoots. I understand what your saying but I can't do this on command or without the led sled (trust me I've tried). Oh and I placed 2nd both times and they where entry level competitions and I don't even know what that means lol. I started with the sniper 101 on YouTube. With help from my dad and uncle and a LOT of shooting I feel I'm pretty good but not great by no means! This particular gun shot 1.25" groups at 100 yards when I first bought it (from factory)

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

I used to have that same exact rifle. It shot pretty good for a budget gun but I tossed the stock right away and put a better one on. Actually, it's still on a shelf in my reloading room so if you want another green overmold stock for another build let me know. It was not a AI like I shoot now by any means and I would not expect sub 1/2 MOA groups from it with factory ammo. It has a huge amount of free bore and I could not seat bullets out far enough to reduce the jump and still use the magazine. Tuned reloads shot better than factory ammo by far but it was not a sub 1/4 MOA rifle either. I know rifles are all different and sometimes an amazing shooting rifle I'd found in the most unlikely form. Remington has not been known for super high quality laser beams from the factory but I guess it could happen.

2nd place is good for a new shooter. You should come for a PRS match, Steel Safari or a Raton sporting rifle match as they are an absolute kick! You should do well as good as you shoot.

What scope do you have on that thing? It's hard to tell from that picture.

 

[huntinfool87]

It's a swafa super sniper scope. I had the action blue printed and trued before I got the accuracy out of it. The stock was horrible! I had to put shims behind the recoil lug then I bedded the action then I filled the entire for end with epoxy to stiffen it up I also put an extra swivel study for a sling. I had to make my own cheek piece cuz of that danm scope hight. I'm not sure what those competitions are but they sound fun. But Colorado is a good 4 hrs away from me.

 

[huntinfool87]

I was proud of second place but my first constitution there was only one experienced shooter he took 4th but said his barrel was fouling out. The second one the girl that won first place had never shot a competition before lol. She was good! I will try more next year but this is more of a hobby than anything. I just purchased a dpms panther lr.308 so that is what I'm shooting now.

 

[WVRJ]

I am not a competitive shooter by any stretch,but have shot in and won a few local matches.I have worked on a lot of M700's,and do a good bit of shooting,usually 2 or 3 times a week when the weather's good.I have shot and seen a lot of rounds shot at 500 yards and beyond.Any time I put 5 into less than 3 inches at 500 yards and they're on POA,I'm very happy.I can only go by my experience,and I've not yet seen groups like that come out of any of the rifles I've shot or seen others shoot.I'm not saying it can't be done,not saying it hasn't been done.There are budget rifles out there that have the potential to shoot very well if they're tuned up right.One of my most consistently accurate rifles falls into that category.The variables that come into play at longer distances make .5 inch groups at 500 yards to say the least very difficult.Having said that,I did shoot 2 groups back to back with a M788 at 100 that were .098 and .112 respectively.Me and that rifle never shot like that again,but I did it 2 times.One thing that I feel is very important in a rifle is consistency.I would much rather have a rifle that will shoot 3 inch groups most every time out at 500 than one that will shoot a crazy good group once in a while and far bigger groups more often.I won't dispute or refute,but the only way to back up such claims of extreme performance is to do it some more.There are guys on here who's experience will far surpass mine,and guys on here who can't come close to backing up their stories of incredible accuracy.I've been shooting,tinkering and tuning rifles for about 35 years,and have been blessed with a good number of very nice rifles and I know from those years that I truly do know very little indeed about how to shoot them because even after all that time I'm still learning.I have found that the internet has been the single most important accuracy improvement in all those years simply because of the knowledge and wealth of info that is now at our fingertips.And it's also made a heluva bunch of rifles shoot incredibly well simply because their shooters can say so and there's no way to really see them in action.