I agree, unless the bore height is such as to have a noticeable difference in the sight tracking and overall ergonomics/shootability of the gun. A shot to shot difference of .04 on the El Pres. would be .4 seconds at the end of the drill. FWIW, on a drill like the El Pres, .4 seconds is actually fairly substantial. Let's say you shot 56 points in 5.4 seconds. That's a HF of 10.37. The same hits in 5.0 seconds is a HF of 11.2. That can be a huge difference to a gamer. Maybe even an entire classification.
Bore axis height bores me.
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I agree, unless the bore height is such as to have a noticeable difference in the sight tracking and overall ergonomics/shootability of the gun. A shot to shot difference of .04 on the El Pres. would be .4 seconds at the end of the drill. FWIW, on a drill like the El Pres, .4 seconds is actually fairly substantial. Let's say you shot 56 points in 5.4 seconds. That's a HF of 10.37. The same hits in 5.0 seconds is a HF of 11.2. That can be a huge difference to a gamer. Maybe even an entire classification.
spook
Member
I don't believe the bore axis with most pistols is great enough to result in a significant difference. One exception is the H&K P9S which has the recoil spring around rather than under the barrel. This is a light pistol and everyone who has fired mine, which is a .45, has comented on the light preceived recoil even in comparison to a full sized 1911.
Rabid Rabbit
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He was out in left field.
He was going on about lack of power compared to a 338 ( really? do tell. I hear Mack trucks have more horse power than my diesel rabbit). How much better the 338 was at anything beyond 100 yds (my rabbit doen't pull 40ft. trailers real well either, but I don't use it for hauling 20 ton containers either). He went into somthing about bad case design etc.... When I mentioned the 30-30 was kinda old and didn't have the benifit of advanced propellants and materials and thought they did a good job regardless, things went down hill quickly.
I did nothing to bring this on except to be testing some loads for a Win 94, I had just started loading for.
I've never shot a 338 (I'd love to though, but at 600 -1000 yds.) but have an idea of what it does and to me they are for completly different ends of the hunting spectrum. He was just trying to impress me with his knowledge.
He was going on about lack of power compared to a 338 ( really? do tell. I hear Mack trucks have more horse power than my diesel rabbit). How much better the 338 was at anything beyond 100 yds (my rabbit doen't pull 40ft. trailers real well either, but I don't use it for hauling 20 ton containers either). He went into somthing about bad case design etc.... When I mentioned the 30-30 was kinda old and didn't have the benifit of advanced propellants and materials and thought they did a good job regardless, things went down hill quickly.
I did nothing to bring this on except to be testing some loads for a Win 94, I had just started loading for.
I've never shot a 338 (I'd love to though, but at 600 -1000 yds.) but have an idea of what it does and to me they are for completly different ends of the hunting spectrum. He was just trying to impress me with his knowledge.
Any of you guys ever shoot two pistols of the same model side by side, only one has had the bore axis lowered by changing the frame? For instance, take a Glock or an XD and remove some material from behind the trigger guard so the second finger is closer to the magazine release, and maybe even remove a touch under the "beavertail" thereby lowering the bore axis. Perhaps even try a 2011 frame that has been similarly modified in comparison to one that has a low beavertail. Just curious if this thread is mostly based on experience or speculation.
Marshall
Member
I think it's a bunch of crap and something people use to justify negative comments. People feel a need to justify not liking a certain gun so they pick something, bore axis is one of those things. I don't care why someone doesn't like a particular gun, makes no difference to me unless they are recommending why not to buy it. There's a lot of guns that I don't care for and the reason can be a simple as, just because. 
Ankeny-yes. The pistol is a 4 5/8 Ruger Blackhawk in 45 LC. Was trying out new rubbers on it, specifically to shoot Corbon's 300 grain soft points. Tried the Houge version first, since really like their S@W grips. Also tried the Pachmeyers. The Houge version noticably increased the height to bore axis , and the increase in felt recoil and muzzle flip was significant. Switched back to the Pachmeyers. Course, this would be one of the more extreme examples, and a lot less noticable in a 9mm semi-auto.
Old Fud
Member
I'm not experienced or educated enough to give technical reasons for it all, but my 1911 and my 686 both jump UP and hinge my elbow, while the Kahr K9 punches straight back thru the heel of my hand and up my bones.
The Kahr stays lined up for a follow-up shot more, but both my daughters and I have noticed our hands and wrists hurting after fewer rounds thru it.
I THOUGHT the difference was bore axis.
(Still do.)
The Kahr stays lined up for a follow-up shot more, but both my daughters and I have noticed our hands and wrists hurting after fewer rounds thru it.
I THOUGHT the difference was bore axis.
(Still do.)
Bore axis does matter, low bore axis lends itself to less perceived recoil and quicker follow up shots. Some folks prefer to practice less to get a gun to shoot quick for them. How much it matters is up to you, and there is certainly nothing wrong with choosing a pistol based on bore axis. That's why there are so many different pistols. Choice is good.
Some people just like to hear themselves talk out of their bottom.
Go to any competition related forum and tell them bore axis bores you...
Ask Jerry Miculek and other [fast] revolver shooters how they shoot and I guarentee they will tell you to hold the gun as high as possible...
Who to believe.....
Go to any competition related forum and tell them bore axis bores you...
Ask Jerry Miculek and other [fast] revolver shooters how they shoot and I guarentee they will tell you to hold the gun as high as possible...
Who to believe.....
ExMachina
Member
Taken from Duane Thomas' review of Miculek's Ultimate Advanced Revolver: "Miculek puts the web of his shooting hand OVER the top of the grip's recoil hump, leaving just enough clearance between hand and hammer for minimum clearance as the hammer comes back. This gets his hand up closer to gun's bore axis and provides superior leverage to cut down on muzzle flip."
So, whether or not Miculek states it overtly in his video, even he has obviously perfected his shooting technique to compensate for the higher bore axis of the wheelgun.
Certainly, practice is the most important element in shooting well (or better). But, practice coupled with a mindfullness of technical factors (bore axis, gun balance, hand position, sight focus, trigger control, etc) will be more productive for most individuals.
Bore axis may "bore" you but the fact is, the lower the bore axis, the better. It is like saying that accuracy "bores" you. It may be true that there are other factors involved in good shooting than the gun's mechanical level of accuracy but no one would argue that the more accurate you can make a handgun the better.
Bore axis is important for control during rapid fire and it tends to make the gun point more naturally since it is more inlined with your hand. Nobody ever said that bore axis alone is going to make or break a handgun. It is just one of those factors that you look for and hope it is as low as possible.
What I look for in a self defense handgun are:
trigger, sights, grip size and shape, grip angle, bore axis, caliber, capacity, and size and weight. Not in this order but it one of many factor to consider. Every handgun is a compromise but why not get the lowest bore axis you can get if all else is equel?
Bore axis is important for control during rapid fire and it tends to make the gun point more naturally since it is more inlined with your hand. Nobody ever said that bore axis alone is going to make or break a handgun. It is just one of those factors that you look for and hope it is as low as possible.
What I look for in a self defense handgun are:
trigger, sights, grip size and shape, grip angle, bore axis, caliber, capacity, and size and weight. Not in this order but it one of many factor to consider. Every handgun is a compromise but why not get the lowest bore axis you can get if all else is equel?
BTW, that stuff about revolvers having a higher bore axis than any auto is total BS. I just measured my 1911 bore axis and it is 1 1/4", my Ruger Speed Six is 1" and my Kahr K-9 is 7/8".
The Kahr recoils less than larger and heavier pistols I have owned in the same cailber. For example, I had a FM High Power in 9mm that recoiled much more than the Kahr K-9 and it weighs quite a bit more and is a much larger gun. Bore axis at times may be a minor issue but at other times it can make a huge impact on the way a gun shoots.
The Kahr recoils less than larger and heavier pistols I have owned in the same cailber. For example, I had a FM High Power in 9mm that recoiled much more than the Kahr K-9 and it weighs quite a bit more and is a much larger gun. Bore axis at times may be a minor issue but at other times it can make a huge impact on the way a gun shoots.
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