Bottleneck question?

[Captain*kirk]

For all you guys who load bottleneck rifle...do you full-length resize or neck size your cases?
It's said that neck sizing only extends the life of your brass by only re-working the necked down portion of the brass, leaving the fireformed case expanded to fit the chamber, thus cutting down on work hardening of the brass and case length growth and subsequent trimming. The downside, of course, being that your reloads will only fit your chamber, and not your brother's rifle chambered in the same caliber. This kind of puts a stranglehold on the idea of loading up several hundred rounds that you don't intend to shoot right away. I have both full length and neck sizing dies in 7mmRM, but got away from neck sizing when my son bought a Sako chambered in 7mm on the off chance he wanted to shoot some of my ammo (he sold the gun a few years back). Thinking about going back to neck sizing but wanting some input on whether it's worth while, or just full length to SAAMI specs?

 

[lightman]

I full length resize, unless I'm loading for a tight neck chamber. Then I use bushing dies. I've seen very little to no improvement in accuracy or case life when neck sizing. Most of my case failures are either split necks or loose primer pockets. Neck sizing addresses neither of these.
I have a few Redding die sets with both FL and Neck dies and I never use the neck die anymore.

 

[Captain*kirk]

Most of my case failures are either split necks or loose primer pockets. Neck sizing addresses neither of these.

Absolutely correct on both points

 

[LiveLife]

For magazine fed semi-auto, full-length resize.

 

[jmr40]

If you only have ONE rifle in the cartridge you're loading for then neck sizing is probably OK. But I have several rifles in 308 so I full length size them. Even for the others I do the same.

 

[barnfrog]

I full-length size, moving the shoulder back 0.002". Just started annealing, which should extend case life. I have a Lee collet neck sizer for my .243 but haven't ever used it.

 

[AK Hunter]

Learn to anneal your brass & full length size.

 

[Varminterror]

Thinking about going back to neck sizing

Don’t.

Even if you only have one rifle, still don’t.

It’s a fad from the 1990’s which was based on pseudoscience theory and only became popular because ONE dude had set a BR record with it a few decades prior and some magazine ran an article about how long the record had stood…

FL sizing promotes more consistency from one firing to the next, and when done properly (not just smashing rounds to minimum SAAMI spec), cases last just as long whether FL or neck only sizing.

And of course, do not fall for the trap that “neck sizing only with a FL die by not pushing the shoulder back” is actually neck sizing. It’s still FL sizing, just without regulating your shoulder.

FL size and bump your shoulders back 2 thou. Live happy. No clickers, no inconsistent case volumes, no premature case death, no nonsense, no snake oil.

 

[Roverguy]

Neck sizing only is something to consider with say a Lee-Enfield with its “generous” chambers or some lever guns, for example. Unless there are good reasons to neck size only (and there aren’t very many) annealing and FL sizing is probably best.

 

[N555]

Only neck size if you want a stuck case or rounds that won chamber.
Fire form the cases then bump the shoulder back. Anything that head spaces off the shoulder should have FL dies that push the shoulder back 5 thousands or less.
If you have something that head spaces off the rim or belt, FL dies could be over working the shoulder by pushing it back anywhere from 10 to 25 thousands.
In that case gap the dies.
Small base dies push the shoulder back closer to Sammi spec, most of the time you don't want small base dies.

 

[Captain*kirk]

FL size and bump your shoulders back 2 thou.

'splain this to me, Lucy.
I've seen this many times but not sure how you go about "bumping the shoulders back .002"?

 

[AJC1]

'splain this to me, Lucy.
I've seen this many times but not sure how you go about "bumping the shoulders back .002"?

Measure fully fire formed cases and then slowly adjust your die down till your shoulder is .002 less than that value on a comparator or precision mic. The issue is trying to bump when the shoulder is not fully fire formed to some arbitrary number...

 

[Captain*kirk]

Measure fully fire formed cases and then slowly adjust your die down till your shoulder is .002 less than that value on a comparator or precision mic. The issue is trying to bump when the shoulder is not fully fire formed to some arbitrary number...

I have a RCBS precision mic in 7mm that I use to backset the bullet from the rifling but have not used it for what you are describing. Might give it a try.

 

[FROGO207]

FWIW I am in the partial full length/ shoulder bump or whatever it's called now sizing along with annealing every 3 reloads. This is what has worked out the best for me. Most of my bottlenecked ammo dies of loose primer pockets these days.

 

[Captain*kirk]

FWIW I am in the partial full length/ shoulder bump or whatever it's called now sizing along with annealing every 3 reloads. This is what has worked out the best for me. Most of my bottlenecked ammo dies of loose primer pockets these days.

Over half my cases are nickel plated. Can nickel brass be annealed, since you can't see the color change?

 

[Bazoo]

Here's a test I did with 30-30 on case life that you might find interesting: 30-30 Case Life Test. I haven't done any further testing, but I do plan to do some testing with multiple cases and do an accuracy test with them so I can see any difference in accuracy as the number of firings increase.

 

[Charlie98]

I have lost more bottleneck rifle brass to brittle brass vs overworked brass from FL sizing.

I full-length resize my rifle brass every time. I annealed my .348WCF brass, for example, because it's expensive and can be hard to find, but don't really bother with 5.56mm or 7.62mm brass, although if I had an automatic annealing machine, I probably would.

 

[Varminterror]

'splain this to me, Lucy.
I've seen this many times but not sure how you go about "bumping the shoulders back .002"?

I'm HOPING this is a genuine question, rather than the type of game playing that Guffey used to play - so if it IS an honest question, scroll on this webpage down to the video labeled "Sizing Brass"

Wheeler Accuracy - Info Videos Page


The Hornady/Stoney Point Headspace Comparator tools are one option for measuring (as depicted in the video). Here are several other options which I mentioned recently in another thread.

Progressively size the brass using the method Alex Wheeler describes in the video to move the shoulder farther and farther until you feel the bolt JUST barely dragging as it closes (meaning the cartridge JUST BARELY squeezes into the chamber with a slight press fit), and then use any of these tools pictured below, or the Hornady Comparator tool, or RCBS Precision Mic's to further lower the die the controlled 2thou to set your shoulder bump.

Here are a couple of lead measure process tools rather than using the sized brass as a lag measure to reset dies. These eliminate the need to size, measure, size again, measure again for every time you move a die.

*I prefer to buy a sizer for each rifle so I avoid any reason to reset dies back and forth, but these tools work.

Depth spindle on the caliper used to measure the die body height over the press:

Forster Accu-adjust lock ring - each mark here is 0.001” (1/32 of a turn is 2 thousands, even without indicator marks)

Whidden Click Adjust lock ring - each click is 1 thou:

@jmorris put together this handy DIY height gauge, doing the same thing which can be done with the depth spindle of a caliper.

 

[Varminterror]

Over half my cases are nickel plated. Can nickel brass be annealed, since you can't see the color change?

Yes, nickel brass can be annealed.

No, you should not be annealing based on color change, even with yellow cartridge brass.

 

[Varminterror]

Neck sizing only is something to consider with say a Lee-Enfield with its “generous” chambers or some lever guns, for example. Unless there are good reasons to neck size only (and there aren’t very many) annealing and FL sizing is probably best.

Once the cases are fireformed to oversized chambers, then the shoulder should still be bumped back and the cases still FL sized. Conceding that an oversized chamber and undersized dies is never a good fit, regardless of firearm design, so in those specific cases, you may want custom dies reamed to match the oversized chamber, but you'll still want to push the shoulder back and FL size the cases. Neck sizing only, even in a "generous chamber" will always welcome inconsistency between firings and welcome excessive body growth which eventually leads to clickers (oversized case body expansion above the web which resists primary extraction).

Leverguns typically also should always be FL sized, because we have very little leverage to close oversized cases into the chamber, and very little leverage for primary extraction, so oversized case expansion which might cause "clickers" in a bolt gun which has great primary extraction leverage will cause a stuck case in a levergun. Slide/pump actions the same, for the same reason.

There remains NEVER a viable opportunity where neck-sizing only is the best method for case sizing.

 

[bigpower491]

I used to neck size. Used to being the key words. I set my rifle dies up like others in this discussion do....just a slight bump to the shoulder. I used to use either a sharpie to "paint" the neck and shoulder, or fire up a candle and "smoke" it. I have a set of the Stoney Point gauges that I bought back 20 yrs or so ago, and set up with those now.
The neck sizer dies are basically paperweights these days. Never got much if any gain from using them. The only time I might pull em out again is if I have to pull bullets. Then just to get any lost neck tension back

 

[barnfrog]

The Hornady/Stoney Point Headspace Comparator tools are one option for measuring (as depicted in the video). Here are several other options which I mentioned recently in another thread.

Progressively size the brass using the method Alex Wheeler describes in the video...

I have found the Redding Competition die set very useful for finding the right amount of shoulder bump and then replicating it consistently.

 

[Nature Boy]

Full length size everything, all the time, every time.

 

[N555]

'splain this to me, Lucy.
I've seen this many times but not sure how you go about "bumping the shoulders back .002"?

Fastest way to do it get range pickup brass find one or a few that will almost chamber in your gun and that doesn't try to get stuck.
IF you have a weird gun and can't get any brass that was fired in other guns then neck size your brass and reload them till they get sticky, may take 1 to 3 shots.
Remove ball expander from FL die.
GAP the die, say 5 to 10 thousands if your round head spaces on the case shoulder, using feeler gauges. Size brass that brass that almost chambers and see if it chambers.
Reduce the gap one or 2 thousands at a time till the case chambers easy.
After you think you found the gap reinstall the ball expander.
load up 10 shots and fire them, load the same cases up and and fire them them 2 more times make sure you don't get any shots that make the bolt handle hard to lift or hard to go into battery and your dies are set.
if you get cases that are hard to chamber or extract close the gap at least 2 or 3 thousands more.
you will likely find that you need little to no gap on case that head space on the shoulder.

 

[N555]

Over half my cases are nickel plated. Can nickel brass be annealed, since you can't see the color change?

If by color change you mean glowing red then yes.