Boxer or Berdan?

[Double Vision]

With the price of ammo I've been shooting a lot of what is sold as Berdan primed surplus ammo. I also shoot boxer whenever possible. I save all my brass, even though I don't reload yet.

Is there an easy way to tell if ammo is boxer or berdan?

Is it possible to reload berdan brass or am I wasting my time saving it?

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Getting the old primers out is the hard part. They have two small offset flashholes that aren't in the center of the primer pocket.
I have seen attempts at making a depriming assy that would take them out but you have to twist and feel for the flash holes since they are not centered in the pocket.

The old military brass that used the berdan primers were sometimes made from thicker brass also and caused problems with trying to resize the neck because the extra material goes to the inside of the case making it very hard to seat bullets with conventional dies.

I don't know about the rest of the members but I throw them away.

To me they are not worth the hassle.

 

[Double Vision]

Thanks.
Looking inside the brass, now I see the two holes in the Berdan as compared to the one hole in the Boxer. That was easy.

 

[cfullgraf]

It is possible to reprime Berdan primed brass but it is a real pain. Plus, Berdan primers are difficult to find and I believe there are many more sizes than the two basic sizes for Boxer primed cases used in the US.

Unless you are shooting a cartridge that is rare and difficult to fine, I would toss the Berdan primed stuff.

Save any brass cases and recycle them.

 

[A-FIXER]

Save any brass cases and recycle them.

I used the berdan primed brass to Perfect my Anealing technic..
then I sold them for bulk brass...... just an idea.

 

[David Wile]

Hey Double,

Like Chuck said, Berdan primers are very, very difficult to remove from spent cases, finding a source for Berdan primers is very, very difficult, and the cost of Berdan primers (when available) is very, very high. As everyone else noted, most folks do not reload Berdan primed cases, and a lot of folks just let them lay on the ground.

However, there are some really dedicated reloaders who do actually reload Berdan primed cases. You can find a few You Tube videos of folks removing Berdan primers and see for yourself if you think you might like to remove them for yourself. I think there ought to be some You Tube videos telling folks how to get a supply of new Berdan primers at a reasonable price as well as telling you ahead of time exactly what size you need. It really is a task that is only for the most stout hearted of reloaders. I like the time I spend reloading, and I do a lot of time consuming tasks like casting bullets and making my own gas checks. I would not, however, be tempted to reload Berdan primed brass.

Like I said, however, there are some really dedicated folks out there who think the majority of us are missing out on a very good deal. To each his own.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[jk2008]

Don't scrap that brass just yet

There are two approaches that I know of for making your brass berdan cases reusable.

1) You can reload berdan cases with berdan primers. You just need the following:

A) a berdan de-capping tool (RCBS makes one that you can get from Midway and you can find them from time to time on ebay and gunbroker) and
B) a source of berdan primers. They have been hard to find in the last few years, but I recently purchased several boxes (from Graf's, IIRC)

2. You can convert berdan brass to boxer and then reload it using commonly available boxer primers. This can be a time-consuming task, but it can be worth it if you are shooting a hard-to-find caliber (e.g., the 7.62x45 Czech) or if you just enjoy tinkering. The links below describe two ways to do this:

A. http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=90109
B. http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirear...5275/t/Berdan-to-Boxer-Conversion-Method.html

So, rather than scrapping the brass, you CAN reload it if you really want to.

Finally, if you aren't willing to go to the trouble of reloading the brass, you may be able to sell it to someone who is; and, you may make more than you would at the recyclers.

 

[jk2008]

Reloading Berdan primers is not as hard as it seems

David Wile said, "Like Chuck said, Berdan primers are very, very difficult to remove from spent cases, finding a source for Berdan primers is very, very difficult, and the cost of Berdan primers (when available) is very, very high."

This may have been the case in the past, but currently I don't think it still applies.

Berdan primers aren't that hard to remove. Granted, de-capping a Berdan case is more involved that de-capping a Boxer case, but it is still easy. With this tool: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/245983/rcbs-berdan-decapping-tool, I have de-capped 4 to 6 Berdan cases a minute. Midway is charging ~$65 for it (which is a lot more than I paid for mine), but you might be able to get a used one cheaper on ebay. Here's a current auction for one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCBS-BERDAN...367?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc42c8397. Also, you can make a home-made de-capping tool from a spare file as shown in one if the links in my previous post; and, there is another messier method using a hydraulic ram that supposedly works well, but I've never tried it.

Currently Berdan primers are not hard to find: In recent times, yes, they have been hard to find, but if you act quickly, Grafs has them: http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/23432. Other vendors may have them, too, so check google.

Currently Berdan primers are not overly expensive. While the Berdan primers currently at Grafs are more expensive than Boxer primers, they are not THAT much more expensive. A box of 1000 is currently going for $31.59. This is well within the ballpark of what Boxer primers are going for.

So, the impediments of ease, availability and cost are not currently significant factors and the issue boils down to whether you want to go to the trouble.

 

[Twmaster]

I use a 4" long section of stainless car radio antenna with a point on it to pierce then lever out the berdan primers. Easy. Fast.

Powder Valley, Grafs and DAGammo are three seller with primers in stock for 7.62x39 and other large rifle cases.

Yes as jk points out it is more work than boxer. But if you have time and no resources or hard to get cases, think 7.5 Swiss match reloading berdan is not that bad.

Double, what kinda ammo are you shooting? I might want yer cases if you don't need them or want to do the work to reload the berdans.

 

[PCCUSNRET]

Not sure about any other Berdan primed brass, but I have been reloading Swiss GP-11 brass for about 10 years now and I find it only takes about 20 seconds longer to load one of these pieces of brass than it does to load a Boxer primed case. The additional time is for filling the case with water, removing the primer and unclogging the 2 small flash holes with a dental pick. Other than that, no different than reloading Boxer primed brass. Also, Powder Valley and Dag Ammo currently have Berdan primers that will fit the GP-11 (and some other calibers) in stock for about the same price as most Boxer primers. Here is a link to a thread showing the tool I use to remove the primers and also one showing some of the GP-11 brass ready to be resized and primed.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=642766

Sorry, couldn't figure out how to repost these photos again since I had already used them in a previous thread.

Removing the primers takes a little getting used to, but once you get the hang of hitting the steel rod with a hammer, its really not that difficult.

 

[Twmaster]

Parker,

I've tried the hydraulic method you use and just end up with a wet face and primers still in their case snickering at me.

How far do you fill the case and how high in the case are you holding the rod as you hit it?

 

[PCCUSNRET]

Parker,

I've tried the hydraulic method you use and just end up with a wet face and primers still in their case snickering at me.

How far do you fill the case and how high in the case are you holding the rod as you hit it?

I've had this happen on a perhaps 1 out of every 100. I fill the cases with water to the top of the mouth of the case. The rod needs to fit inside the mouth tightly so the water pushes the primer out of the case. If the rod is undersized or if you get a case with an extra hard crimp then it may cause the water to shoot up around the neck instead of forcing the primer out. I have found that on cases this happens that if I run those cases through the neck sizing die that the primers will be forced out when I try them again. Does your base have an exit path for the primer? The base I'm using to hold the brass is drilled about half way down through the base with another hole drilled through the side meeting up with the hold drilled through the top of the base allowing the pressure to shoot the primer and water out the side of the holder, allowing you to aim the water and primer away from you when the primer is removed. Hope this helps.

 

[Twmaster]

I think maybe my rod was not tight enough in the case. I did have a pocket to catch the primer as it was supposed to pop out.

These days I'm doing it dry by piercing the primer and just prying it out.

 

[PCCUSNRET]

According to the 2 sets of calibers I have, the rod needs to be .3075 (digital) or .308 (manual). I think I would go with .308 if I was making one. The hole in the side of this tool is also beveled so that if the mouth expands and the primer doesn't pop out with the first hit, all I have to do is put the mouth of the case in it and give it a light tap and try it again. I don't know whatever happened to the fellow that I got this from. Once the PMC Berdan primers dried up he stopped making these as the demand no longer existed. I believe I paid close to $40. for this tool but I really like it a lot better than the RCBS tool.

 

[FROGO207]

I used the RCBS tool and it worked passably. Then I made a custom hydraulic deprimer. I used stainless steel as I did not want it to corrode. I cut a large 3X3 block with a hole for the brass to set in countersunk into it and hollowed out the bottom 2 1/2 inches to act as a primer storage area with a hole for the primer to drop through between them. Then a custom pin with a smaaalll taper to fit the neck. That was the easy part. Then I tried depriming some.:banghead: It still was messy so I put the whole thing in a SS cooking pot I found somewhere to contain the water. Better contained but still messy. Next I cut slots in the bottom of the block with a hack saw to relieve the water pressure and made a longer length pin and put a nylon washer on the shaft to deflect the water. I filled the pan with water above the brass depth by about an inch and tried it. Primer popped out, no spray at me, and no mess to speak of. Liked it so much I mad one for my 303 BRIT/7.62X54 as well as the one I use for 308/8MM/7.62X39. Just need to use the correct diameter pin to decap with. I use bands in the shaft to ID them.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

some of the best X39 brass is Sako and Lapua that have berdan primers, not crimped in.
Useing the RCBS tool I salvage them but have not loaded any yet. the Yugo surpus currently available is also good cases but corro primered - should be rinsed in hot soapy water bath asap after getting home w/them. at present not a money-saver to reload these but in future maybe - when the sales or import of European ammo is stopped and domestic made is 1$ a pop or more which it's about that now.
Lapua also produced X39 with boxer primers which I have loaded, really good brass.

 

[NuJudge]

If you are using the RCBS tool, don't use the mandrel they give you to hold the case on. Use a Seating die to hold the case.

Not every Berdan primed case is easily reloadable, for several reasons. The first is you have to have the right Berdan primers. Berdan primers are made in a bewildering aray of diameters, heights, strengths and hardnesses. Right now there are two different .217" Berdan primers made by Murom in Russia and easily available from TulAmmo, one intended for 7.62x39 class cartridges, which is shorter, harder, and has less explosive strength:
http://www.dagammo.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=46
The other is taller, seems to be softer, but has much more explosive strength:
http://www.dagammo.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=47
The second primer is the one PMC imported some dozen years ago under their label, and has worked great for me in .217" primer pockets.

There are a lot of different sizes of primer pockets. Most .303 is .250", although all the FN .303 I've seen is .217", and some South African from the early 1980's was .217". Of 7.62x54R, all of it has .254" pockets, except for early Bulgarian and all Albanian, which are .217". The Czech 7.62x45 I have has pockets that are about .197".

The other big problem with some Berdan brass is that sometimes they have heavily staked primer pockets, and they may have a sealant that has much in common with epoxy resin. The worst I've come across is the South African .303 from the 1980's.

Berdan primers are typically more gentle than Boxer, but I once got sky high pressures with 8x57, using the same load that was moderate with Boxer brass.

 

[Hondo 60]

I don't know about the rest of the members but I throw them away.
To me they are not worth the hassle.

Sound advise, especially for common calibers

 

[ObsidianOne]

I'd make a better reccomendation. Start a scrap bucket (you'll need it when you start reloading, bad brass, old primers, etc.) and toss all the berdan primed stuff in there (brass stuff anyway, maybe a seperate for steel if you want to torture you back picking up the steel, which is worth less).

Also, it is my understanding that you can ONLY use a Berdan primer in a Berdan primed case (assuming you've solved the enigma of punching out the old primer) and if I'm not mistaken Berdan primers aren't readily available and are most, if not all, corrosive. To me it sounds like more labor than fruit, but to each their own.

Also, easy way to tell if a case is berdan primed is take a look down the inside and look for the flash hole(s). If you have one semi-large one in the middle, Boxer. If you have two smaller flash holes, Berdan.

Hope this helps!

 

[Twmaster]

Berdan primers are available from multiple sources (Grafs, Powder Valley, DAG etc). None of the currently offered primers are corrosive.

Getting the old primer out is not that hard. Most of you are just spoiled by how easy decapping boxer is.

And yes, it's true. Derdan primers come in many sizes. However many common European rifle cases use the same .217" diameter large rifle primer. All of the 8x57 cases I have use this.

Does it make sense to try reload something like 7.62x39? Not usually. Now try and find new Swiss 7.5MM match brass.... Or Czech 7.62 x 45...