BP .45 Colt C'tgs

[Oyeboten]

Ran a few rounds through an old S&W 3-1/4 Inch Barrel, N-Frame, made likely in 1916.

Was .455 Originally, got converted at some point to .45 Colt or .45 ACP with Moon Clips.

I modified some .45 Colt Cases to fit the Moon Clips, and, to clear the Recoil shield and so on.


Anyway, had some .45 Colt rounds I loaded up a few months ago, 30 Grains 3 F BP, thin home made Lube Wafer. 230 Grain 'SAECO' Wadcutter, loaded normally for depth.


Was clocking high 7s to low 8s with those.

Not bad!


Also, I last night I loaded up some with 8 Grains of 'UNIQUE', same Bullet, loaded backwards to hang out fathest...lots of Air Space that way, and, these clocked low 6s to low 7s.

Probably with the "8" I could load these Bullets normally.

No loading data for this Bullet I can find.


I do not know why I was getting so much variance in FPS, primers maybe? ( 'Wolf' ).


Too much air space in the Case?



Nice report and recoil with the BP.

8 Grains of 'UNIQUE' in this condition, seemed fairly mild for .45 Colt.

 

[BullRunBear]

I make a similar BP load but with my usual 255 gr LSWC fired in a New Vaquero. It's a comfortable load with low recoil and pretty darn accurate. At 25 yards from a sandbag rest for my forearms it will keep 2 inch groups, sometimes better, which is good for me with fixed sights. Haven't tried the BP cartridges with other, lighter bullets.

I've really come to enjoy these BP pistol cartridges. Makes me feel like Roy and Hoppy are smiling in approval.

Jeff

 

[Jim Watson]

Too much air space in the Case?

Yup.
30 gr FFFg and a 230 gr bullet is a light load.
8 gr Unique and that 230 loaded backwards for more freeboard is a light load.

Either way, burning gets erratic and so does velocity.

You are pretty well stuck, that does not seem like a good gun to soup up.

 

[Oyeboten]

Well...when I posted about using 10 Grains of 'UNIQUE', everyone was all upset!


Those were nice Loads, too.


Lol...


I will try 8 Grains again, and, with the Bullet in a normal seating.


Just experimenting, primarily to find a solution to the Chambering issue.


The 30 Grains BP giving High 700s and low 800s of FPS with a 230 Grain Bullet, seems not too bad to me for a 3 inch Barrel .45 Colt.

I would carry that Round and feel good about it.

It is on par with standard/traditional 5 inch Barrel .45 ACP out of a M1911, far as Bullet weight and FPS, also....which Historically, was always respected as an effective Cartridge/Ballistics.

 

[BullRunBear]

Don't know about your older N frame but I use 9 grains Unique in the New Vaquero and a Blackhawk. It's accurate and slightly above medium strength compared to commercial ammo but recoil isn't bad. John Taffin calls this his working load for the 45 Colt. When I went to 10 grs Unique (only in the Backhawk) the accuracy suffered. I should mention these loads are all with the 255 gr. SWC bullet.

Jeff

 

[Oyeboten]

Depending on Bullet seating depth...9 Grains might still be fine for this Revolver.


I am actually pretty happy with 3F Black Powder, and how nicely it does.


Interesting that I was getting irregularities in performance with the 8 Grains, when having the Bullet loaded backwards for minimal loading density.

Given how 'UNIQUE' has so long been favored for Target Rounds, with low amounts of it being used, I had not expected the Air Space to cause this issue.


I will try 8.5, Grains, and, a normal Bullet seating...see what that does.


My goal is to find a combination allowing a fairly consistent 800, or 825, or 850 FPS, with a 230 Grain Wadcutter, while not straining the Revolver from undue pressures.


Given that the .45 ACP Cartridge which the Cylinder is able to accept also, is a higher pressure cartridge than the .45 Colt, I see no reason why I could not be loading to the upper areas of .45 Colt for it.

I just do not want the Bullet Jump in a stepped Cylinder Bore which is stepped to oblige 45 Colt in thie Revolver...so, I am using .45 Colt Cases, modified to fit the Moon Clips, to alleviate the otherwide Head Space concerns the .45 Colt Cases would have.


I still want to try 'Trailboss' sometime...

Tried 'Blackhorn', and it seemed to have absolutely nothing to offer for Revolver, other than that a full Case of Powder have about 100 less FPS than BP did.

 

[bubba15301]

y not use 45acp cases if it is set up for moon clips

 

[Pulp]

TrailBoss is a good choice. It gets very inconsistent if you try for super light loads, but that's not what you're looking for anyway. I'm not sure you can pack enough into a case to get 800fps out of a 3 inch barrel though.

I just looked at the Hodgdon's website and they show 802fps for a TrailBoss load with a 230 grain bullet. But I didn't see the barrel length of the test gun.

 

[Malamute]

You may have better results with Unique using a 250 gr bullet instead of the 230. I've had erratic performance with 230's and Unique, and no troubles with 250's and the same charge. You couldn't tell much by the sound, but the point of impact at longish ranges was very erratic, indicating widely varying velocities. 8.5 grs/250 gr bullet gives 925 fps in my 4 5/8" Ruger Vaquero, and is very consistant at longer ranges (200-300 yards). The 45 Colt case is pretty large. Powder efficiency can make a difference. Heavier bullets can help some powders perform more consistantly, and take up more space in the case. Paul Mathews, in his book about the 45-70, noted that some powders(same charge) gave higher velocities with heavier bullets. The powder was just operating better in it's proper pressure/resistance/velocity range.

I've also had erratic performance with Unique in ultra-light rifle loads (3 grs Unique w/ round ball in 30-30) unless I used a tiny bit of dacron pillow stuffing to keep the powder by the primer.

Unique is a better medium load powder. Bullseye has been the light load target powder of choice in my understanding.

It's my understanding that black powder performs best when lightly compressed. The charge means less than the load level. If it takes say, 37.5 grs of black to give some compression with your bullet of choice, so be it, the numbers mean little. Just choosing a number to call the charge isnt the best way to load black in cartridges, from what the guys that shoot it much have told me. You can also use card or felt wads to make up space in the case when wanting a lesser charge of black, just being sure you get some compresion on the whole thing with the bullet.

 

[Oyeboten]

Oh yes, all my BP Loads are well compressed, and also have a Lube Wafer between Bullet and Powder.


'777' seems agreeable aso, with no compression, no air gap.


I have not had any variety of Bullets to try untill now, since I just last Cast up a few dozen Thurday night.

It is a hassle trying to find out what they weigh though, since all I have is a Powder Scale which is really only for very small weights.


But, near as I can tell, of the three kinds I cast up, one type is about 175 Grain and hollow Base...another, about 262 Grain flat Base flat tip RNL, and, another, 268 Grain flat Base Keith-like.

 

[Bluehawk]

my 4 5/8" Ruger Vaquero, and is very consistant at longer ranges (200-300 yards)

what type of groups are you getting with that Vaquero at those distances??

 

[Oyeboten]

My two older .45 Colt/.45 ACP Revolvers ( both accept either Cartridge ) need chubbier than usual Bullets.

The Cylinder Bores are larger than usual...the Barrel between-the-Lands is larger than usual.

.455 Bullet diameter would be about ideal, and, now, I have cast a few dozen of three kinds.


The problem then is that none of the Dies I have are suited for this diameter Bullet/Boolit.

I am having to use .45-70 Dies, to expand, and, some improvised other element, fitted to a different Die Body, to crimp.



This is kind of a drag, compard to how elegent things could be, if appropriate Dies were available.


Really, I have little interest in 'Light' Loads as such.

Or, I can arrange those very readily by using 3 F BP, and, a little Cream o' Wheat.

These are both quite shgort Barrel revolvers ( 2-1/4 inch, and, 3-1/4 inch Barrels ).


I am interested in a healthy-enough full power Load, well shy of 'Hot', but which still is in the range of being comfortable for the Revolvers to manage a now and then foray with.

 

[Malamute]

"what type of groups are you getting with that Vaquero at those distances?? "


Hmm, groups may not be exactly how I'd describe it, since it's not shooting on paper, but at 200 yards hitting rocks of about 12"-16" is pretty simple to do consistantly. Rocks the size of a 5 gallon bucket arent too tough at 300, with perhaps 2-3 hits for 6 shots, the rest rather close. When your loads aren't consistant, you can tell when they drop way low, when you felt your shot was good. Consistant close misses don't make you feel too bad, wild misses are poor trigger control, or poor load consistancy.

At one cowboy shoot, they had a steel buffalo cutout at 300 yards. I believe it was about 3' high, 4' or so wide. I shot about 100 rds at it after the shoot was over, and was hitting it with over half of my shots. Not spectcular shooting, but good fun. I was shooting kneeling, two handed.

 

[Captain Moroni]

I cowboy shoot BP alot...use 777, 30 grains by volume and a MBC Cowboy #1 in the .45 and 15 grains (by volume) MBC Cowboy #15 in 38 spl. I can't miss with the rifle with these loads. The loads are at the upper end in terms of speed. The .45 loads come out HOT in my pistols... I also only shoot nickel brass for BP. The powder burns much hotter than smokeless and eats regular brass up. Nickel brass seems to last forever. I throw them into "moosemilk"--9/1 water/Ballistol--right after each match. Moosemilk is a great solvent for BP all around. Hodgdon publishes these loads, in part I think because of the air-gap issue. No cornmeal or wads...