Agreed. My smokeless loads are fired out of a Howell conversion cylinder made for the Uberti 1860 Army. I would never load smokeless powder into the BP cylinder. l've shot the Howell cylinder with good results in the past. My question relates to whether I can shoot my BP loads out of the standard Uberti cylinder and also shoot the conversion cylinder with 45 Colt smokeless rounds during the same range visit.
Shooting Blackpowder and Smokeless Ammo out of same pistol, same day.
- Thread starter VMass
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Agreed. My smokeless loads are fired out of a Howell conversion cylinder made for the Uberti 1860 Army. I would never load smokeless powder into the BP cylinder. l've shot the Howell cylinder with good results in the past. My question relates to whether I can shoot my BP loads out of the standard Uberti cylinder and also shoot the conversion cylinder with 45 Colt smokeless rounds during the same range visit.
Well I learned something from you and Jackrabbit today. I didn't know the conversion cylinders could take smokeless powder, thought you would have to go with BP loads even in them.
45 Dragoon
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Nope, part of the reason for modern conversion cylinders is so you CAN shoot smokeless and not have to be so concerned about the cleaning aspect. It's an excellent way to be able to shoot your favorite revolvers with "modern" convenience.
I've been testing the open-top platform since last summer for its threshold load.
With CORRECTED arbors and a close tolerance build my Uberti '60 Armys in 45acp have been shooting 21,000 psi loads ( with about a third of them being 23,000 psi) and my Dragoons (Uberti and the same "extreme" setup) have been shooting 45C +p's using Kirst cylinders. Absolutely no signs of pressure problems.
The modern materials used for the reproductions are by far better than the soft iron originals and Kirst cylinders are easily capable. . . That being said, a CORRECT build ( like the originals) is necessary for shooting in this arena.
I have NOT tested the same on a Pietta platform so I cannot recommend that platform or the Howell cylinder for anything over tier 1 loads.
Here's my '60's
and here are the Dragoons
Mike
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Pete D.
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I have two 1851s. Great guns as you know. My favorite of the two is a Pietta “Yank” snubnose in .44 cal. It has one of the best triggers that I have used on any pistol. I picked up a conversion cylinder for the gun. It allows for .45 Colt. I load very short wadcutters to ensure proper OAL. I have never used smokeless for this gun. This thread has opened up that alternative. Thanks.
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Pete D., I assume from your comment "I have never used smokeless for this gun" you must load your 45 Colt with BP. I want to do the same to shoot out of my Uberti '73 SAA pistol. I use a "middle of the road" load of 5.7 grains of Titegroup in my smokeless reloads and get good results. How much BP do you load in the 45 Colt case? Thanks.
45 Dragoon
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Pete D, you'll enjoy your revolver even more with the ability to load a variety of ammo!! Just stay in the area of what's recommended for your Howell type cylinder. I'm not "versed " in the construction of those cyls. I do understand they don't offer the same amount of cartridge case support with the amount of contact the back plate ( cap) has against the recoil shield.
VMass, if your Uberti is of "recent" construction ( after 1990 according to Brian Pearce) you can shoot 45C+p's in it. Not so for the Pietta offerings.
Just an fyi.
Mike
My Uberti 1860 Army is only a couple of years old, and I've already fired 45 Colt smokeless factory loads thru the Howell Conversion Cylinder. What I would like to do now is also shoot Black Powder 45 Colt loads in my Cimarron/Uberti 1873 SAA. I've read a lot about how much BP to load in the 45 Colt case, but looking for some experienced advice, if you can offer that. Thanks.
45 Dragoon
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The "age" requirement was for the Uberti Mod.P you mentioned. The open-top would require arbor correction and tolerances closed down.
As far as loading bp rounds for 45C, you can't put "too much" bp ( or subs) in the case. I'm sure some others can offer pet loads for you. I will say full power bp loads are a handful!!! I don't/ can't shoot bp where I live so smokeless is all I shoot.
Mike
Pete D.
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I cannot give you a straight answer. I load from a dipper (FFFg… Lee 2.2cc). That drops enough powder so that when I add a wad a top the powder and seat the bullet (a light 165 grain “button” type wadcutter from Matt’s Bullets), I get a little compression.
I am guessing that the dipper drops about 35 grains of FFFg.
I imagine that a smokeless load of 6.0 grs of Unique would work nicely.
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Pete D., that's very helpful. I've read a lot of posts that say basically the same: Load enough BP and wad to get some compression against the seated bullet. The general consensus was it would be somewhere around 40 grains of BP. That's what I'm going to try for a couple of "practice" rounds and hope for the best!
44 Dave
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Avoid any wad with lube, if you are not going to shoot them soon.
hawg
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40 grains of bp behind a 255 grain bullet was the original load. You can't put 40 grains in a modern case. The military later reduced the loads to I believe 30 grains.
Pete D.
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Well…..I sat down and weighed the BP charge used in the .45 Colt. The 2.2 cc Lee dipper drops 34 grains of FFFg. A Walters wad atop the powder and then the bullet, a 165gr. Full WC from Matt’s bullets. Crimp.
This is what it looks like, with a slightly different bullet….also a 165 from Matt.
This is what it looks like, with a slightly different bullet….also a 165 from Matt.
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hawg
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FWIW I use 35 grains in my 44-40. No wad, no filler.
Based on everyone's input and what I've read in the past, I think I'll start with 35 grains of GOEX and a 250 grain lead RNFP bullet. If there's enough space in my brass, I'll add a wad. I'll be curious to see if the wad makes any difference assuming I get some compression in the case without it.
Thanks to everyone for your input. I replied heavily on the expertise on this forum when I started reloading 45 Colt last year, and I'm still alive with all my limbs so your advice was on target.
Agreed. After everyone's great input, I think I'm going shoot my smokeless rounds in the Howell conversion cylinder first, then switch to BP. And I'm bringing some 'moose milk' to the range to give the barrel and BP cylinders a quick cleanup before heading home.
Dave Markowitz
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This is what I do mostly in .44-40 as well. 219 grain bullet cast from an Accurate #43-215C mold and 2.2cc (~35 grains of BP). In Starline brass this is a slightly compressed load and chronographs at close to 1300 FPS from my Cimarron 1873 Sporting Rifle with a 24-1/4" barrel if I use Swiss 3Fg.
I do also load some .44 Henry Flat-equivalent loads with the same bullet and 28 grains of BP. To take up the space I first used 0.5cc of cornmeal, but changed to cardboard wads made by Circle Fly. The cornmeal or wad takes up all the air space and results in a compressed load. These loads should give about 1100 FPS from my Cimarron 1860 Henry.
The .44 Henry-equivalents are for use the Henry or in revolvers, where they kick a lot less than full power loads.
hawg
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I like full power recoil.
I want to thank everyone for your input. Finally got to my local outdoor range yesterday with my Uberti 1860 Army pistol. I took along three cylinders loaded with Goex BP, 20 reloaded 250 grain 45 Colt rounds with middle-charge of 5.7 grains of Titegroup, and another 30 rounds of 250 grain factory smokeless 45 Colt. Based on all your advice, I decided to shoot my smokeless rounds first, with my Howell Conversion cylinder handling my own reloads very well. Accuracy was good except for the fact this pistol always shoots a bit high and my aim had to be adjusted after a couple of rounds.
The important thing is that I examined the barrel after shooting about 30 BP loads at the end of the day and it was, of course, filthy. I cleaned it up a bit with moose milk at the range, and finished the job at home. But boy was I glad I didn't shoot my smokeless last. No telling how all the residue/crud would have affected the barrel and accuracy.
Again, thanks to all for your input.
The important thing is that I examined the barrel after shooting about 30 BP loads at the end of the day and it was, of course, filthy. I cleaned it up a bit with moose milk at the range, and finished the job at home. But boy was I glad I didn't shoot my smokeless last. No telling how all the residue/crud would have affected the barrel and accuracy.
Again, thanks to all for your input.
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Thanks for your comments about your "Cimarron 1873 Sporting Rifle with a 24-1/4" barrel..(chambered) in 44-40". I have the exact same Cimarron Sporting rifle chambered in 45 Colt and love it. I'd like to load some BP rounds for it and my Cimarron 1873 SAA pistol. Any reason why 35 grains of Goex with a 250 grain lead RNFP bullet shouldn't work as well in my rifle as your load does in yours?
Dave Markowitz
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That should work fine and pretty much duplicate the original .45 Colt ballistics. Note that .45 Colt brass is thicker than .44-40 brass, which means it won't seal the chamber as well. You're likely to get some fouling back in the action.
I know a way to shoot both in the same cylinder. Pyrodex is actually a "smokeless powder." It was created to conform to the shipping regs of the time.
But to be honest, you have to thoroughly clean the gun between using the different powders. Not only is it for safety but also for accuracy.. Been there, done that.
But to be honest, you have to thoroughly clean the gun between using the different powders. Not only is it for safety but also for accuracy.. Been there, done that.
hawg
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No it's not. Chemically Pyrodex is the closest sub to real bp that you can get.
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