I'm looking to purchase my first shotgun, now that I'm old enough. I've considered Ithaca 37s and Winchester 12s, but I think I've settled on the WM for it's simplicity and reliability. Would you guys reccomend a new or old model, how do they compare? I will be using it as an all around gun, ducks, pigieons, dove, etc. rabbits, some trap.
Brand New 870 WM vs. Vintage WM
- Thread starter remmyl
- Start date
- Status
OldCavSoldier
Member
middle-aged wingmasters have pressed checkering while older ones and current ones have cut checkering....making the middle aged wingmasters a little less expensive
Honestly my own personal belief is a Wingmaster that was built in the 50's,60's or 70's has probably been put together with more care and certainly the Walnut stock is of a higher grade due to the time difference.
But one must also understand that some of the older ones can't handle steel shot(buy a current barrel) and prior to around 1986 most have a fixed choke(buy another barrel with that allow choke changes).
But a new Wingmaster is no piece of junk either.
But one must also understand that some of the older ones can't handle steel shot(buy a current barrel) and prior to around 1986 most have a fixed choke(buy another barrel with that allow choke changes).
But a new Wingmaster is no piece of junk either.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
What about mechanically speaking?
Without outright neglect (obvious from external & internal condition), abuse (mostly kitchen table gun butchery) and save in the rare cases of trap/skeet guns with 250,000 or more rounds through them, 870s wear IN, not out. That is, they get better with age.
lpl
Without outright neglect (obvious from external & internal condition), abuse (mostly kitchen table gun butchery) and save in the rare cases of trap/skeet guns with 250,000 or more rounds through them, 870s wear IN, not out. That is, they get better with age.
lpl
I've got a 5 yr-old Express and a 1959 Wingmaster (among other 870s).
The Wingmaster has the aesthetics of blued steel and classic furniture, but it required a few parts including a new trigger group (nevermind the ballyhooed metal trigger body because this one was cracked). And the action bars needed straightening before it came close to be smooth or slick as those good 'ol guns we hear glowing reports about. Of course, there are some good ones out there, but unless you get 'em checked out before you commit funds, you may be getting a project rather than the simplicity and reliabilty you are seeking. If money is not a constraint, by all means get the new WM... it has a warranty.
Given that it's your first gun, be sure to budget for a case, cleaning kit, eye & ear protection, the hunting and field accessories you'll want for the intended use, and a few cases (not just boxes) of shotshells.
My Express gets the most use and has developed some noticeable wear & trear that some might think unseemly for a WM, but my Express is a working gun and it's beauty is below the surface.
The Wingmaster has the aesthetics of blued steel and classic furniture, but it required a few parts including a new trigger group (nevermind the ballyhooed metal trigger body because this one was cracked). And the action bars needed straightening before it came close to be smooth or slick as those good 'ol guns we hear glowing reports about. Of course, there are some good ones out there, but unless you get 'em checked out before you commit funds, you may be getting a project rather than the simplicity and reliabilty you are seeking. If money is not a constraint, by all means get the new WM... it has a warranty.
Given that it's your first gun, be sure to budget for a case, cleaning kit, eye & ear protection, the hunting and field accessories you'll want for the intended use, and a few cases (not just boxes) of shotshells.
My Express gets the most use and has developed some noticeable wear & trear that some might think unseemly for a WM, but my Express is a working gun and it's beauty is below the surface.
Remmyl,the real truth is a new Wingmaster will keep you happy and a clean older one will keep you happy.
And even a used 870 Express is a good shotgun without the super nice blueing that the WM gives you.
At the end of the day I truely dont think you will be unhappy with any of the variants of the 870 that you buy new or with reasonable selection used for that matter.
And there are a lot of used 870's of all sorts of variants to choose from.
It's true there are dogs out there but the truth is most long barrel shotguns are owned predominately by men that hunt with them and as long as they are not scratched up and rusty guns they are most likely in pretty good shape and are capable of giving years and years of continued service.
So you see finding some old guys bird and game gun that he no longer wants or can use or in some cases ends up in an estate sell is a treasure awaiting for the new owner.
If old guns could actually talk......
And even a used 870 Express is a good shotgun without the super nice blueing that the WM gives you.
At the end of the day I truely dont think you will be unhappy with any of the variants of the 870 that you buy new or with reasonable selection used for that matter.
And there are a lot of used 870's of all sorts of variants to choose from.
It's true there are dogs out there but the truth is most long barrel shotguns are owned predominately by men that hunt with them and as long as they are not scratched up and rusty guns they are most likely in pretty good shape and are capable of giving years and years of continued service.
So you see finding some old guys bird and game gun that he no longer wants or can use or in some cases ends up in an estate sell is a treasure awaiting for the new owner.
If old guns could actually talk......
The-Reaver
Member
I have two older ones, Probably the only pump action shotguns I'll ever own.
heeler, do you know if a new barel fit without modifications on 50s-70s WM? Thanks for the thoughtful replies, guys. I have nothing against the Express, but I would want something with a little more eye appeal. The Wingmaster is perfect to me because it's a good looking gun, but not so expensive and beautiful that you wouldn't want to take it out in the field.
Virginian
Member
With the caveat that older 2-3/4" guns will likely not properly eject 3" hulls from a newer barrel, the newer barrels will fit the older guns just fine. The ejector and ejector spring can be modified/changed however.
I have had six Wingmasters from the 70s, and the mechanical quality between those and the newer guns is comparable in my opinion. Some of the design changes, like the mag cap retention system and the switch to some MIM parts is somewhat of a downgrade, also in my opinion. The style changes from the chrome lifter and the smooth sides through the heavily roll marked sides is personal taste. But, they are all about as good as a pump gun can be.
I have had six Wingmasters from the 70s, and the mechanical quality between those and the newer guns is comparable in my opinion. Some of the design changes, like the mag cap retention system and the switch to some MIM parts is somewhat of a downgrade, also in my opinion. The style changes from the chrome lifter and the smooth sides through the heavily roll marked sides is personal taste. But, they are all about as good as a pump gun can be.
Sav .250
Member
Vintage..........in good condition, would be my choice.
OldCavSoldier
Member
Personally, I'm very much into "old"....I love old guns, old cars, old whiskey, old women...er...woman....ain't nuthin' wrong with old.......
tbutera2112
Member
- Joined
- May 14, 2011
- Messages
- 161
if you buy an 870 - absolutely buy an old one...new ones qc has gone out the window...junk
Virginian
Member
BULLoney. If you get the cheapest Express you can find, it is not, and is not marketed as, a Wingmaster. Sort of like you get what you pay for, ya think? The bottom of the line Expresses are built to sell to the people who want the cheapest thing they can find, and that's it. Most of them work, and when one doesn't IF the buyer gets back to Remington rather than launching into kitchen table fixes, as far as I am aware they have been taken care of, but that doesn't stop the Remington and Express haters from bleating all over the net about how bad Remington is.
If you have looked at a bunch of the newer 1100 Sporting Models, the G3s, or a new Wingmaster, you would know there is nothing wrong with the quality. Since an early issue with hammers, which Remington addressed promptly, the VersaMax appears to be performing well also.
If you have looked at a bunch of the newer 1100 Sporting Models, the G3s, or a new Wingmaster, you would know there is nothing wrong with the quality. Since an early issue with hammers, which Remington addressed promptly, the VersaMax appears to be performing well also.
content
Member
Hello friends and neighbors // The newest Wingmasters I own are 1976, a 12 and 20 ga.
The 12ga Mod, 28" VR, I've used since NIB in 1976. It still shoots a 2" slug group (rem sluggers) at 50 yards.
The 20ga. I picked up 3 months ago for $200.00 at a local pawn shop.
There is a slight suken spot in the shoulder stock but it is hard and strong ( you feel it more than see it). and someone had their SS# etched into the bottom of the reciever. (this took minutes to emery cloth off and cold blue.)
Well worth every penny.
The action was a little sluggish with old oil build up but after cleaning it runs as smooth as any.
I'd go used, they are out there everywhere. I just passed on a 16ga. for $229.00 and recently had to drag my self away from a beautiful dark walnut stocked 1990s WM magnum for $400 (asking price) I may still go back but already have a 2003 Express magnum.
You find a few trying to sell used WMs for over six. I'd stick to the ones between $225 and $350.
I have 3, 1960 (tenth year) WM 12,16,20 ga. and at a minimum they get used every year, just like the newer ones, in a multi family shoot where I hunt. No problems so far with folks from 11 on up to 75 using them.
(I need a pic of the 76, 20ga.)
I also rely on my 870 Express Mag. ,12 and 20ga,.when hunting whitetail in heavy woods(buckshot), hunting turkey (#5 shot) or with a cantilevered, rifled barrel and scope in shotgun only areas (slug).
You can make an 870 very versatile with multiple barrels.
Good Luck finding what works for you.
***If you happen find an old WM with a serial number lower than 6000, reguardless of condition ,(and you are not interested )Please PM me.
The 12ga Mod, 28" VR, I've used since NIB in 1976. It still shoots a 2" slug group (rem sluggers) at 50 yards.
The 20ga. I picked up 3 months ago for $200.00 at a local pawn shop.
There is a slight suken spot in the shoulder stock but it is hard and strong ( you feel it more than see it). and someone had their SS# etched into the bottom of the reciever. (this took minutes to emery cloth off and cold blue.)
Well worth every penny.
The action was a little sluggish with old oil build up but after cleaning it runs as smooth as any.
I'd go used, they are out there everywhere. I just passed on a 16ga. for $229.00 and recently had to drag my self away from a beautiful dark walnut stocked 1990s WM magnum for $400 (asking price) I may still go back but already have a 2003 Express magnum.
You find a few trying to sell used WMs for over six. I'd stick to the ones between $225 and $350.
I have 3, 1960 (tenth year) WM 12,16,20 ga. and at a minimum they get used every year, just like the newer ones, in a multi family shoot where I hunt. No problems so far with folks from 11 on up to 75 using them.
(I need a pic of the 76, 20ga.)I also rely on my 870 Express Mag. ,12 and 20ga,.when hunting whitetail in heavy woods(buckshot), hunting turkey (#5 shot) or with a cantilevered, rifled barrel and scope in shotgun only areas (slug).
You can make an 870 very versatile with multiple barrels.
Good Luck finding what works for you.
***If you happen find an old WM with a serial number lower than 6000, reguardless of condition ,(and you are not interested )Please PM me.
Last edited:
stnjohnson
Member
I'd personally go with old. They just work so darn smooth and look so classy.
Gun Geezer
Member
Had a barrel threaded internally to accept Rem Choke. Gun smith charged my $50. Much better than a new barrel.
marcrystal
Member
Remington's Walmart sacrifice
Remington knelt before the altar of mass quantity sales at Walmart and the Express was born. A Wingmaster is a beautiful well built gun and an Express is a "Walmarted" version of it - built as cheaply as possible to the price point dictated by Walmart. Watches, pots, clothes and every manner of retail merchandise have been "Walmarted" to their price point. Stuff at Walmart often is cheaper because it's not the same as, say, at the hardware store. Since I'm for gun ownership of all varieties and access at all price points a person can afford, I'm not against it in the Expresses' case - I just wish they'd come up with another NUMBER for the gun besides 870. Even Weatherby and Beretta have made this sacrifice to Walmart as you see in the Express/Wingmaster, leaving us mortals to figure out the differences as if there aren't any. Many people have never even SEEN a Wingmaster. Well, one is quality built and more expensive and the other is cheaply constructed and less expensive. BTW I've killed birds with both of them.
Remington knelt before the altar of mass quantity sales at Walmart and the Express was born. A Wingmaster is a beautiful well built gun and an Express is a "Walmarted" version of it - built as cheaply as possible to the price point dictated by Walmart. Watches, pots, clothes and every manner of retail merchandise have been "Walmarted" to their price point. Stuff at Walmart often is cheaper because it's not the same as, say, at the hardware store. Since I'm for gun ownership of all varieties and access at all price points a person can afford, I'm not against it in the Expresses' case - I just wish they'd come up with another NUMBER for the gun besides 870. Even Weatherby and Beretta have made this sacrifice to Walmart as you see in the Express/Wingmaster, leaving us mortals to figure out the differences as if there aren't any. Many people have never even SEEN a Wingmaster. Well, one is quality built and more expensive and the other is cheaply constructed and less expensive. BTW I've killed birds with both of them.
philpost
Member
At a local fun shop I picked up a '51 Wingmaster w/ a '74 deer barrel (w/sights) for $175. Feels like butter, and at that price, how could you go wrong?
RickMD
Member
Me too. There's nothing wrong with them but I feel it's a bit disingenuous for Remington to imply that they're the same gun as the original 870.
By the way, I have several new Wingmasters and can't tell a bit of difference between them and the older models. In fact, I like them better mainly because I can't stand the look and feel of impressed checkering. I bought Remington cut checkered, walnut replacement stocks for all my old ones when Remington still sold them.
tbutera2112
Member
- Joined
- May 14, 2011
- Messages
- 161
i wasnt taken care of. they had my 870 for two months (i bought it brand new 2 months prior) and when i got it back it actually performed worse than it did when i sent it to them....theres no way they test fired it to make sure their fix worked, because instead of occasional problems it began doing it after every round
wanna see the best fix i ever did to my 870?
I've owned Wingmasters produced in the 70's, 80s, 90's and 00s. There has been an undeniable decline in the quality of production. This isn't unique to just Remington but it is a fact. No more modern Remingtons for me but I'll always keep an eye out for a well-loved and well-cared for Wingmaster from an earlier era.
- Status
