Brass Frame Pietta: NO Manual

[Pietta-Paul]

OK I am new to this forum and to BP guns. I am NO novice to firearms and have many fine weapons. I bought this gun at a Gun Show in KC this weekend because I have always wanted a BP gun and this one is in very good shape.
I have no manual and have looked all over the net to find one. After reading all the threads in this forum I have a pretty good idea of how it operates and even some of the things I need to know about the gun. But I am still a little unsure of somethings.
The gun appears to be a Pietta 1858 NEW MODEL ARMY .44 cal with the brass frame.
the serial number starts R3357xx. It has a BU stamped in a box and according to SulpherStench's post that would make it a 2004.
I see most folks use fffg Pyrodex or Goex somewhere between 27-30gr. per
I am still not sure about the ball whether I should use .454 or .451
and the cap should be a #10 or #11 ?
also I am looking for a good place in KC to buy all the gear that goes with this gun. I am open to all suggestions and any corrections to wrong assumptions I have made above.

 

[Tommygunn]

Pietta generally recommends .451 with it's .44 guns. When you load the ball, you need to assure that a ring of lead is shaved off; this assures a snug fit and that recoil won't cause the ball to shove forward in the chamber and obturate the cylinder rotation. If somehow .451 does not leave this shaved ring you need to go to .454.
I think #10 caps will fit Pietta. But if they are large, you can gently pinch them so they hold.
You might want to go with light loads in a brass frame but since you have the Remington design with the topstrap, which makes it a little tougher and some people say you won't have too much of a problem.

 

[brentn]

yep, .451 is the way to go. If you get swagged balls (pressed lead, not cast) they are the best, the .451 will fit so tight that like tommy said, it will leave a shaved ring behind. Because the swagged are pretty much perfect in spherical shape, you really don't need to use bore butter or any cross fire prevention. The seal is so tight that theres no way that a spark could get through and ignite the next chamber.

I use #11 caps on my pietta 1860 army, they fit snug enough, I have never tried #10. It could be different for the remington as they are not the same nipples (as far as I know) as the revolver I use.

I do however recommend the lubricated wonder wads between the charge and the ball.
You can find both at dixie gun works.

 

[mykeal]

I have both an 1858 Remington New Army and an 1860 Colt Army by Pietta. The 1858 takes #10's, the 1860 takes #11's.

As above, start with .451 and look for the lead ring. It is NOT a given that your gun will use .451, but it is likely. There were variations in Piettas for several years, although the latest guns are higher quality and more consistent.

25 grs fffg is just a tad more than I'd recommend for every day shooting. You will PERHAPS get better accuracy with 20 grs, although that is something you should work out by testing. 30 grs is ok occasionally but because of the brass frame I'd limit it's use to just that.

brentn's suggestion of lubed wads is a good one. I do that rather than grease the chambers.

I have absolutely no idea where to get bp supplies in KC. Or KS, for that matter. All the places that I used to go when I lived in Wichita 30 years ago are long gone.

Have fun.

 

[Pietta-Paul]

Hey thanks all who responded this is great info I am really looking forward to this Saturday's trip to the range. I purchased 1lb of Goex and 1lb of the Swiss powder from Gafs yesterday. These swagg balls, is there a specific brand I should use and what brand of caps. I am also looking for a powder flask that will distribute 20-25gr at a time per MYKEAL's post

 

[Cap n Ball]

I shoot a lot at the 'Bullet Hole' on Shawnee Mission Parkway and Robinson.
You can get more info on the piece and good quality accessories at James Country Sutler in Liberty. They are good folks and are well informed on BP firearms. If you go to an indoor range don't forget to wet down the firing lane before you start shooting. They hate it when the floor catches fire.

 

[Tommygunn]

I am also looking for a powder flask that will distribute 20-25gr at a time per MYKEAL's post

A lot of flasks have removable spouts, so it really is the spout you should be looking for.
Try www.dixigunworks.com

 

[CavemanEngineer]

I have a Pietta 1858 Remington with the brass frame and judging by the serial # it is a little older than yours. I have found that the Remington #10 caps were perfect but the CCI #10 are to small. My store doesn't carry the Remingtons anymore so I use CCI #11 magnum caps and pinch them a little, works perfect for me. I use .451 balls but have used the .454 also, not that it makes a big difference but it prefers the .451's. As far as the amount of powder I have been going against the grain(so to speek) and have been shooting 30 or so of 777 FFFg. Everybody seems to say too much and back off but after a few months and 1000 or so rounds I have had no problems and the gun seems to get better with age, I am also very new to this black powder shooting but have fallen in love with it and prefer to spend the time messin around with this than shooting cartridge guns. I have replaced the hand once so far. Don't worry about it just shoot it and learn it, you will have to get used to each other.

 

[mykeal]

30 gr 777....

Caveman Engineer -

Have you done any testing for accuracy with that load vs other amounts and types of powder? I'm curious why you are using that much - my experience is consistently that you don't get good accuracy with that much 777.

 

[CavemanEngineer]

I have not used anyother kind of powder as there is only one in my area and thats what I can get. I don't order online as well I just don't. When I first got the thing a few months ago I started with 22 to 25 grains but then I noticed that the flask spout holds just a bit more than 30. True lazyness says one less step if loading is more shots off in a day. I was going to lessen my volume last few times out but never have yet. My latest experiment with it was with wheel weights instead of speer .451's. The wheel weights vs the Speer balls were same up to 25 yards but when found the WW's were not flattened and go deeper in the sand. Although I can't my buddy was plinking off 2ltr soda jugs at 50 and 75 yards and the WW seemed better than the store bought. I have filed the sight and learned but I can't hit 6 pepsi cans at 25 yards but 4 or 5 always go flying. I have never gotten the 6th one yet nor have I figured if it is a cylinder. But to answer your questions, no I haven't tried other powders and haven't really done any comparisions with different loads. My next gun will be another Remmie, as I seem to like the look better than the colt, and I will be more careful and scientific about it.

 

[mykeal]

Ok, thanks, just curious.

I personally like using 777 (although I REALLY like using real bp). I have developed favorite 777 loads for all my guns based on accuracy (group size @ 25 yards, duelist hold) and I have a few favorite real bp loads for a couple of guns also.

Fortunately I have a source for real bp about 50 miles away (1 way) so I can get to it if the need arises.

 

[Pietta-Paul]

At Dixie Gun Works(Thanks to Tommygun)I found every thing else I needed.
#10 Remington caps
Powder flask with 24gr spout
lubricated wonder wads----->thanks to brentn
Speer swagged balls .451

One question about the wads and balls do I need to tamp down the wads before I seat the balls? and do you put the caps on last or first?

 

[CavemanEngineer]

I use the load lever to push the wads down before setting the balls in, but it probably doesn't matter. Put the caps on last, just before shooting, a bump on the cap would suck while seating the ball. Good luck and enjoy your toy.

 

[Cap n Ball]

'a bump on the cap would suck while seating the ball'

classic understatement!

 

[Pietta-Paul]

I think I have as much knowledge as I can without having actually shot the gun.
I can't wait till Saturday, the range we go to is outdoors so it will be warm.
now if everything gets here by sat?????
Thanks again for all your input, this is a really great Forum.

 

[brentn]

Those wonder wads are nice, even though the chance of a chain fire with a swagged ball of that diameter is less than a percent, they are also designed to prevent chain fires.
I put the powder in, seat the wad, ram the wad down to the base of powder so its flat and then load the ball. A good push and the ball will leave a metal ring that hangs off the loading lever. I usually will go through all the chambers AFTER I load one more time with the lever, to make sure that they are all seated equaly and that there is no space between ball/wad and or charge.

Have fun. So far I've only shot my revolver once... Where I live they are classified as handguns even though they are reproductions, meaning that they can only be shot at an approved gun range...
I plan to take it out to my friends farm anyways and have some fun, I don't care about the laws when your in the middle of nowhere and its a gun that was designed over a hundred years ago and is twice as long as anything available today.

 

[Pietta-Paul]

Thanks a lot BRENTn I'm SORRY your state is so strict. Here in MO we have won many battles and our freedom allows us to shoot these type of guns at our ranges.I invite you to come to MO and we will have great time shooting any weapons at our range. Thanks again

 

[Pietta-Paul]

I received the Powder from Gafs on wed and the other accessories from DGW today and now I am really stoked for Saturday. I will get pictures to share

 

[Pietta-Paul]

It was great

The day was hot and I was glad I purchased the wonder wads!!!! But the gun shot fine and I put about 36 rounds through it and it was easy to shoot no problems. If it had not been so hot and muggie I could have shot the whole box of balls I got.

 

[taralon]

I've always wondered about that whole "shave a ring" thing off. Yes, for best perfomance the ball should be larger than the cylinder bore (and the cylinder bore should be a few thous larger than the barrel bore). Still you get the better accuracy if you don't shave a ring of lead. Cone the cylinder mouths just slightly so that the "squeeze" the balls down to size as you press them in with the loading lever.

This increases accuracy in two ways: 1) It keeps the ball weights closer to what they are cast as (and if you weight your balls to within a grain for good groups closer to their group weight) which helps to eliminate velocity differences, with is one of the main ballistic factors involved in large verticle spreads. and 2) It means your balls are more uniformly round, as variations in density, hardness, and alloy composition don't mean you are shaving more weight off one side of the ball than the other. This causes axis of spin to either remain in, or closer to the center of gravity, decreasing the amount of 'corkscrewing' the projectile exhibits as it moves along its ballistic path.

 

[DixieTexian]

Now that you have shot it you are gonna want a Walker.

 

[Tommygunn]

I've always wondered about that whole "shave a ring" thing off. Yes, for best perfomance the ball should be larger than the cylinder bore (and the cylinder bore should be a few thous larger than the barrel bore). Still you get the better accuracy if you don't shave a ring of lead. Cone the cylinder mouths just slightly so that the "squeeze" the balls down to size as you press them in with the loading lever.

I don't think it makes a huge difference. In order to get most revolvers to do this, machine work must be done.
If you really really must chamfer the edges of each cylinder, don't, just buy the Rogers & Spencer .44, THAT'S how that particular gun works right from the factory.

 

[Pietta-Paul]

DixieTexan now that I have shot this I want a long rifle!!!!!!!!
But your are right I saw this exact gun in my Bass Pro Catalog and it was 179.00 I only paid 140.00 at the gun show so at least I didn't get taken. Any way I got a nice paper magazine with my order from DGW and have been drooling over long rifles. any suggestion in that area?

 

[ferg48]

the only long gun i own is a Pedersoli 10 guage double barrel side-by-side. it takes #11 caps, i use ffg powder, lubed wad, shot, thick cardboard wad and WOW does she fire like a cannon all my friends like it. barrels are choked and chromed so you can shoot steel shot.

obviously, a rifled long gun is much more accurate but DANG she blows most of the paper out lol my friends who have no bp guns at all love her and I do too. have fun

 

[mykeal]

Any way I got a nice paper magazine with my order from DGW and have been drooling over long rifles. any suggestion in that area?

Winchester Model 70 in 30.06.

No, seriously I'd choose a Lyman Great Plains rifle for my first bp long gun. It has generally excellent reviews and is not expensive (relatively).

I don't personally own one but it is on my wish list. My bp long guns are a CVA Kentucky rifle in .45 cal, a CVA Mountain rifle in .50 cal, a CVA 12 ga double shotgun (all 3 are kits from the early 80's), a Traditions Lightning in .50 cal (an inline gun) and a Navy Arms 12 ga double shotgun bought at an auction. My favorite changes from month to month, but at the moment it's the Mountain rifle.