breaking army regulations...

[pwolfman]

I have recently discovered that once I get my CHL, I will not be able to carry it with me at work. Seems there is an Army regulation that prohibits any weapons in government vehicles and even in the office I work in. And I am on the road a lot, always in a Government vehicle, traveling over many miles in the back woods (and those that know me know where the "back woods" are and what they are like) and no cell phone coverage.

The one wrinkle I have is that recently there have been threats against recruiting stations, mainly vandalism, but there have been violent overtones. But they have not stated explicitly that conceal carry is allowed or even an option.

So the question goes something like this…Do I break army regulations, submitting myself to Article 15 or Court martial to protect myself and the lives of my troops if needed, or basically only wear when I travel to work or to the house, maybe 15 miles total? Or as the saying goes...Concealed means concealed...?

Some thoughts?

 

[GSMD Fan]

Exactly which army regulation "prohibits weapons in govt vehicles and offices"?

Does this army regulation only cover privately owned weapons? I have had many weapons in vehicles and offices.

Maybe it is not an army regulation but a policey from recruiting command?
Personal weapons are normally covered in installtion regulations or policies not army wide regulations.
A better question, is your state issued CHL valid in a federal building?

I ask these questions for a few reasons.
First many times I here something is against regulations (like hands in your pockets) and then with research I have found it not to be 100% true.
Second, knowing exactly who prohibited something is important, it determines the level of pain when caught violating it and also if the person is authorized to prohibit you from doing something.

So know answer for you yet, just curious on this regulation.

 

[RevDisk]

Privately owned firearms are generally not allowed on military posts. Excemptions depend on the post. Check with the provost martial.

Discreetly ask your command about its policy on privately owned firearms.

 

[Standing Wolf]

It seems awfully stupid to expect people to risk their lives to recruit people to defend the nation.

 

[pwolfman]

It is a Recruiting command regulation and I am not even close to an active duty military post. And we can not carry in any state builiding or any high schools or colleges, which as a recruiter, I am on just about twice a week.

So the question is with all the restrictions, is it worth it to even bring the CC to work??





This sucks...

 

[spartacus2002]

The Army Reg that deals with this leaves it up to the local commander. Most post commanders will enact a local reg that says you can bring them onto post but have to register them.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Unless there is a defined threat I would not risk my career.

You're looking at several charges under UCMJ and if 1 "concerned" parent makes a complaint you'll be smoked in under a second.

I'm not a JAG guy. You could always call one and bounce the question off him. However, I'm pretty confident that you're violating so many regs they could have you making big rocks into little rocks. ie Army, local regs, and then state/fed law if you get the weapon close to a school.

I wouldn't do it.

 

[WT]

Ain't regulations a b*tch!

And that oath you took to protect and defend the Constitution and obey the orders of those appointed over you ??????? Forget about it. Ignore the oath.

Remember, you are in an 'Army of One.'

Really, haven't we had enough breaking of army regulations with Abu Ghraib?

 

[Commissar Gribb]

get with supply and have them issue you an M9

 

[Henry Bowman]

It seems awfully stupid to expect people to risk their lives to recruit people to defend the nation.

This sucks...

Both true, however...

Unless there is a defined threat I would not risk my career.

Because,

You're looking at several charges under UCMJ and if 1 "concerned" parent makes a complaint you'll be smoked in under a second.

I'd say you have your answer, even if it's not the one you were hoping for.

 

[RoyG]

get with supply and have them issue you an M9

Your are issued a weapon from the Arms Room not supply.

He is most likely in a TDA unit... NO weapons or field gear either.

 

[Devonai]

The way I look at it is that when you and I joined the Army we agreed to make certain sacrifices for what we believe is the greater good. This means following lawful orders and regulations even if we don't agree with them, and trusting our safety to the military.

We aren't expected to be robots, either, so if we perceive a problem there is a system for dealing with it. Work though the chain of command to address an issue. This holds true for your situation. Do it right or don't do it. If you are denied permission to carry, then you can either accept it or submit your resignation. The unfortunate truth is that we have fewer rights while on duty, but we willingly signed them away when we joined.

If I believed I needed a weapon handy 24/7, I wouldn't have joined the Army. I can't carry on base without permission, so I have to have faith in the MPs. I can't carry while out on a FTX, but what bad guy or animal is going to mess with a couple of platoons of soldiers out in the woods?

Obviously you're alone while you're out chasing newjoins. I agree that you should be able to carry in this situation, but get permission first.

 

[USMC_2674]

Every Marine Recruiter I know / knew carried a concealed piece with permit.

Typical army idiocy

Semper Fidelis,

Kent

 

[skidmark]

Without going into the possible consequences of violation of Army regs, you are going to have a lot of problems with any firearm on school property unless you are a LEO.

Some states (VA in a few months) will allow a concealed weapon that remains in the car as long as the carrier of said CCW also remains in the car in the load/unload area out front. VA has had a teacher & a parent busted recently (teacher had pistol in car trunk in the parking lot, parent forgot and went to put it away when asked, but school called cops & he was busted anyway).

Any chance of getting assigned as MP in addition to your recruiting duties? I remember years ago being assigned TDY to MP duty so I could "brig chase" Marines from local lock-ups to base. I was between technical schools & just another body from Casual Company that they snatched up for that chore. But I was a "for real" MP with badge & gun.

stay safe.

skidmark

 

[rick_reno]

I wouldn't carry my personal gun. All you need is ANYONE to get a hint you're armed and they'll hang you out to dry.

 

[Firethorn]

1. CCW is against the rules of warfare. The conventions and such have people openly carrying arms.
2. Every law I've seen has some sort of exemption for 'issued weapons carried during the course of duty' or easier for the military.

If you want, open carry the sucker. As long as you're in uniform, it's going to take a pretty savy cop to figure out that it's not part of the uniform. And most cops that savy won't say a word, because they'll be former military.

And heck, if you get more or better recruits and the higher ups notice.

Reality, career protection wise:

See if you can get them to 'issue' the weapon, or a weapon. Definatly let your higher ups know.

 

[atk]

Does anyone happen to know the penalties that might be implemented, should pwolfman choose to carry against regulations (open or otherwise)? This may not be just a career limiting move, but it could potentially get you thrown into prison.

 

[centac]

Trick bag in action

I gotta think that if it was in any way acceptable for you to be armed on the job they'da told you. Any advise to the contrary strikes me as wicked risky. You may actually get away with it, but suppose worst comes to worst and you wind up in a shooting? You'll be swingin' on your own. I know, I know, better in trouble than the alternative - that's easy to say, but are you willing to flush your career, savings and family?

Just curious, how many recruiters have been assaulted or killed on the job? I have'nt heard of any, but I may have bad info. Does the risk of going unarmed beat the risk of being armed when you are not permitted to be?

 

[Blackhawk 6]

I can sympathize. However, this is one of those things that you have to chalk up to "I do not have to like it, I just have to do it." If you have real, well-founded concerns about your personal safety, you should present them to your chain of command. If you have legitimate concerns about your safety you have a responsibility to present them to your chain of command. Perhaps some accomodation can be made.

FWIW, even though I sympathize and support an individual's right to protect himself, if one of my soldiers was caught carrying a concealed weapon and had not provided me any substantive evidence that he was in jeopardy while attempting to perform his duties I would push for a court-martial.

Does anyone happen to know the penalties that might be implemented, should pwolfman choose to carry against regulations (open or otherwise)? This may not be just a career limiting move, but it could potentially get you thrown into prison.

Charges are likely to be Failure to Obey an Order or Regulation (Article 92) and Carrying a Concealed Weapon (Article 134).

Adjudicated under Court Martial (I consider this the most likely scenario), the maximum penalties are:

-Article 134: Bad-conduct discharge, forfetiure of all pay and allowances, confinement for one year.

-Article 92: Bad-conduct discharge, forfetiure of all pay and allowances, confinement for 6 monthes.

(It is my understanding that court-martial convictions are considered felony convictions. More food for thought...)

Adjudicated under Article 15 of the UCMJ by a Field Grade Officer the maximum penalties are:

- Reduction of 1 rank
- Forfeiture of 1/2 monthes pay for 2 monthes
- 45 days restriction
- 45 days extra duty
- Oral and/or written reprimand

The possibility also exists for you to be chaptered out of the military for the commission of a serious offense. I believe the discharge option are Honorable Other than Honorable, or General, but a Bad-conduct discharge may be an option. Expect the worst, and let me point out that anything other than an Honorable discharge strips you of certain benefits (i.e. your GI Bill) to varying degrees and tend to adversely impact employment options in the civilian sector.

Also, regardless of how it is adjudicated, I would expect a flag preventing any favorable administrative action (awards, promotions, etc.), a bar to re-enlistment and General Officer Letter of Reprimand which will effectively prevent promotion if you ever get the bar and flag lifted.

Absent a definitive threat (i.e. a series of assaults or robberies targeting recruiters in your area), I consider the risk too great.

 

[pwolfman]

Blackhawk 6

You are the one to put it best in perspective. If the threat level rises to that level that demands a CCW, then the chain of command will know, and I will get them to bless off before I attempt to do anything to jepardize the career path.


Thanks all for the food for thought. Majority said, DON'T RISK IT!! And as much as I don't like it, gotta follow the regulations.

Pwolfman