Breech bolt lock on 12 ga pump not working properly?

[Virginian]

The reason the gun is not feeding a second shot is that the shells in magazine tube are not recoiling to the rear at the same time as the gun. The shells in the tube mag will travel relatively a little forward in the magazine tube until the spring and follower stop them and push them to the rear. The gun is unlocking due to the recoil impulse of the forearm and perhaps other parts of the mechanism that are unlocking the gun prior to shells in magazine being in a position to feed.

I thought of that too. Sure is the easy answer, but I am not familiar with that gun's mechanism, and I don't like bottom ejection because of how you have to load them anyway, so never took too much interest besides the BPSs I owned. Can't say positively that's it, just based on the video, but it's a good place to start. Make a dowel out of balsa or other light wood and make it so you compress the magazine spring fully with just enough room to get one round in the magazine and see if that does it.
I still don't think that's blow back at all. It isn't even opening the breech all the way with 2-3/4" loads, and 2-3/4" and 3" shells have relatively the same pressure levels - limited by SAAMI, but no where near the same recoil.

 

[jdh]

Older 870 won't do it huh?
Funny, I used to amuse myself during lunch breaks at the range doing "oh ****" reload drills with a 70s vintage 870 shooting one handed from the shoulder. letting the recoil eject the spent round, loading through the ejection port, pushing the fore end closed, and repeating. Never did have to pull the fore end back. Recoil did it for me. No it is not gas blowing the action open.

 

[CyberRon]

Okay with the blow-back - or whatever - that is opening the breech! I will concede that with newer pumps, that this is normal (still doesn't explain why my old gun, and all those that I have shot from 30 years ago never did this - including 12 ga).

Lets concentrate on what is wrong with the feed mechanism! Why am I not able to load another shell?

It's the lack of a second shot that is most troubling me now. I have carefully watched hours of video of 12 ga pump actions over the past few weeks, and can see the breech opening on those guns as well.

Nowhere have I seen the consistent failure of the guns to cleanly load a second round from the magazine that I am experiencing.

If I can't get Savage to fix this problem, I will accept a refund and purchase a Mossberg (500A or 590A1) or Remington (870) pump. At least I will be able to release the bolt and pull it back slightly to see if I have a chambered round after a full cycle. I don't like the sound of an empty chamber when I need it!

 

[jdh]

When the the slide comes back you pull it the rest of the way back and it ejects but does not load, then you push the slide forward all the way, pull the trigger to release the lock, and forcefully pull the slide back to load the next shell and it works.

However, when the slide is partially open and you pull it back you do it gingerly. Try it again using the same force you do when the slide is closed and see it it works. Or push the slide almost closed and rack it back to see if it ejects and loads.

Finally get a friend to shoot it. Do not tell him the problem you are having so it will not influence his operation of the gun. Just let him shoot it and see if he has the same problem.

 

[CyberRon]

Spoke with Savage this past week (after they viewed the video). They said I was using an improper hold (no kidding - I stated that it was for experimental reasons only). Spoke with Directors of Customer Service, Engineering, and Quality - all trained with tactical weapons - some for the police.

They mentioned that in order to shoot a pump, I should be using a push-pull method - pulling back with the trigger hand against my shoulder while pushing on the fore-end. That doing this (the "proper" method of shooting a pump shotgun) will prevent the breech from jarring open so far.

I was ready to ship it back on an offer to have them check it out (again) and shoot 30 rounds through it. I had agreed to this and had the gun packaged, but wanted to try this method first so I delayed the return.

Has anyone else heard of this push-pull method? Is this a requirement to shoot a 12 ga pump gun?

In all the rifles I have shot - from an air rifle to a .30-06 to a .45-70 - I have held lightly with the lead hand - using it mostly for balance - as a rest. I have shot target practice for a long time, and even got my marksmanship ribbon from the Air Force Academy with an M-16 holding it this way. I used to plink a lot as a kid - up in a junk yard on the hill behind my house. I got tired of shooting cans and bottles and started looking for smaller targets. I actually got quite good at shooting flies from about 15-20 feet away - all with iron sights.

The point is, I have never heard of the NEED to hold a forward pressure on a gun of any kind before. I have seen some info on this technique - supposed to decrease the recoil and allow faster recovery for the next shot. But for a requirement to shoot a gun? This doesn't seem right.

I will admit that Savage has been very good at working with me. I am going to get some other people to try the gun, and also shoot their 12 ga pumps in return. I'm still not convinced that something isn't wrong with the feed.

Also - in response to jdh - I did try to rack the slide back sharply after it opened on me - same result. The only reason I slowed down for the video was to show the mechanism to show Savage so that they might be able to figure out what is going wrong.

They know their gun, and I'm pretty sure they know what is going on with the misfeed - even if they are not saying. All the responses from them have to do with my shooting technique, and preventing the bolt from opening in the first place. This is only half the equation. Even if the bolt does open from not holding it forward forcefully enough, shouldn't the feed mechanism still function properly?

I will be back after some more testing.

Oddly - I found a site where someone was complaining about an opposite issue with a Mossberg. They actually shoot while pulling back on the slide - to load faster. Turns out Mossberg locks the bolt in this case and it requires a slight pressure forward to get the slide to work after the shot. All this is according to another posting (I think in this forum), so I can't vouch for the accuracy.

If this is the case, and I can't get some resolution for my Savage, I may opt for the refund (offered by Savage) and pick up a Mossberg instead. It sounds like the bolt lock is working like I feel it should. It would be a darn shame since the Savage package is so nice. I could also opt to use only 2 3/4 shells with it - it works fine with them - only fails with 3" when holding normally.

 

[Fred Fuller]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=521390

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3776100

 

[CyberRon]

This is a long overdue followup to my issue:

I did resolve the issue after cycling through three of these guns - which, BTW, all did the same.

Savage support was excellent in resolving it. Turns out, there is a technique for firing these assault-type shotguns that I was unaware of. They told me to try a "push-pull" hold on the forearm slide. It doesn't take much pressure, but since I have adopted it, I have not had another problem - even with the heaviest 3" buckshot and slugs I could find (including Brenneke Black Magic slugs). My shoulder took a pounding and I was bruised for a week, but the gun never gave me a problem again.

It's truly amazing that at my age, that something so simple could resolve the problem. Cudos to Savage and their technical staff. Like I said, they worked with me, sending me two replacements at no cost to me (including shipping both ways), and were even willing to give me a full refund if I was not satisfied.

My shotgun was the Stevens 350 model - with ghost sights. Since that issue was resolved, I went out (with full confidence) and purchases a Stevens 320 model for my downstairs gun.

Proves another point as well - you are never too old to learn something new (I'm 60) - despite my number of years shooting, I learned that I was never doing it correctly. It's nice that there are forums like this one that people don't ridicule you, and will help you patiently past your blind spots - if you are open to learn!

Hope this helps.

 

[Pizzapinochle]

CyberRon, I am really glad you just brought this thread back from the dead.

I just acquired a Stevens 320 and I am having an issue that is similar/related to yours.

When I first tried to shoot it, it misfired. Tried again, misfire.

Checked the primer, very light hit.

After fiddling a bit, I am able to reproduce the conditions.

If I load it and push FORWARD on the forend, the gun fires fine.

If I load it and pull BACK on the forend, the bolt shifts back slightly and the pin does not reach the primer. Misfires.

Based off your video, I need to try the "neutral" position (no push or pull), I think I tried it a few times and it fired successfully.

Based on what you have learned, is this a malfunction in my gun or just the design?

 

[CyberRon]

I would recommend you speak to Savage about that one. I haven't had that issue with either of my Stevens shotguns (350 and 320) - both which have always reliably fired. I never tried pulling back on the forearm - I held with a neutral force - basically resting the forearm in my left hand for balance.
What I was told by the experts at Savage, is that these guns were designed for a different purpose than a field gun (which is the only thing I had experience with). They were designed to be used (as are most assault-type shotguns) to use the push-pull technique (I confirmed this from a variety of sources).

That said, I personally would confer with Savage technical support - ask for Joe DeGrande - he's the Director of Customer Service. He's the one that helped me the most.

I got inside contacts from Savage concerning my issues by meeting with people at their booth at the NRA annual meeting in my city. It's a good way to really get to know the people behind the scenes (so to speak). I was able to express my concerns to someone knowledgeable in the company - rather than the 1st level support people that are often more irritating than helpful.

I never drop an issue with the first people I speak to - I ask to speak to their supervisors, and work my way up the chain until I speak to someone who can address my issues. I have found in most companies today, that the 1st line people are basically call screeners - not technical support - and are often not knowledgeable enough to address questions like yours. Be persistent. If you can't get through, hand up and call back. You'd be amazed about the difference in responses from different people! Also try calling during the day rather than in the evening. Most US companies are outsourcing to foreign countries to get 24/7 coverage. Sometime during working hours you can get someone more connected to the product.

Just some practical advice from someone who's been around the block a few times! ;-)