(Britain) Government lawyers say burglars 'need protection'

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Drizzt

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Government lawyers say burglars 'need protection'

By Robert Verkaik, Legal Affairs Correspondent
05 May 2003

Government lawyers trying to keep the Norfolk farmer Tony Martin behind bars will tell a High Court judge tomorrow that burglars are members of the public who must be protected from violent householders.

The case could help hundreds of criminals bring claims for damages for injury suffered while committing offences.

In legal papers seen by The Independent, Home Office lawyers dispute Mr Martin's contention that he poses no risk to the public because he only represents a threat to burglars and other criminals who trespass on his property.

They say: "The suggestion ... that the Parole Board was not required to assess the risk posed by Mr Martin to future burglars or intruders (on the grounds that they do not form part of the public at large) is remarkable."

"It cannot possibly be suggested that members of the public cease to be so whilst committing criminal offences, and whilst society naturally condemns, and punishes such persons judicially, it can not possibly condone their (unlawful) murder or injury."

A recent report by the Law Commission, which advises ministers on proposed changes to the law, argued that judges had been too willing to reject criminals' claims for damages. The commission insisted that "even a criminal who has committed a serious offence" must be allowed to exercise their civil rights. In recent years, the courts have accepted a number of arguments to defeat actions brought by criminals on the basis of the principle that "crime should not pay".

Legal experts say the case for treating criminals as ordinary litigants will have been boosted by the arguments raised by the Home Office lawyers in Martin's case.

But Oliver Letwin, the shadow Home Secretary, said the rights of the victim needed to be addressed. "There certainly seems to be an imbalance [between the householder and burglar] made clear by the fact that burglars can sue for damage done to them in the course of committing a crime. We've put forward an amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill which would rebalance the law in the appropriate way."

Norman Brennan, a serving police officer and the director of the Victims of Crime Trust, said that, by committing crime, burglars gave up "any rights". He added: "The public in this country are sick and tired of all these organisations pandering to the offender. Burglary is a despicable offence." He said: "sensible and reasonable" members of the public knew that, when criminal committed crime, they were putting themselves at risk.

Martin, 59, wants the court to order the Parole Board to reconsider its decision that he is not a suitable prisoner for early release. He was sentenced to life imprisonment for murdering 16-year-old Fred Barras at his Norfolk farmhouse, Bleak House, in August 1999 but his conviction was later reduced to manslaughter by the Court of Appeal when he was given a five-year prison sentence.

A second burglar shot by Martin, Brendan Fearon, was granted legal aid to sue him for damages. Fearon's claim was thrown out by Nottingham County Court last month.

Martin's barristers, Bitu Bhalla and Tony Baldry, of One Essex Court chambers in London, will tell the judge tomorrow that their client's application "concerns the liberty of the citizen which is a matter of paramount concern in English law". They will tell Mr Justice Kay that the Parole Board failed to acknowledge the true extent of Martin's remorse or properly consider the risk he posed to the public.

In Martin's application for judicial review, his lawyers argue: "The risk that has to be assessed in Mr Martin's case is any risk of the use of excessive force when he is either burgled or attacked in his home."

Martin's solicitor, James Saunders, says that this risk is significantly diminished since he no longer owns a gun and has agreed to fit an air-raid siren to his home that "could be heard all over the Fens".

The court will decide tomorrow whether to grant Martin a full review hearing. He is due for release at the end of July.

http://news.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=403287&host=3&dir=60

;) StandingWolf: Would you like me to go ahead and post your comment for ya? :p
 
*laugh*

This is a joke ... right? Where'd you get this? The Onion?

Very, very funny.
Martin's solicitor, James Saunders, says that this risk is significantly diminished since he no longer owns a gun and has agreed to fit an air-raid siren to his home that "could be heard all over the Fens".
Question:
Does this count as "Hue and cry"?
 
Sad to say, this is entirely understandable. Martin was justly found guilty of the killing for two main reasons - the statements that he made to Police were found to be inconsistent with the other aspects of the case (ie: he stated that the burglars were attacking him, the evidence suggested they had been fleeing); and secondly because he had a long history of behaviour that showed he at least had a callous disregard for anyone who he considered was a trespasser, or worse a trespasser and a gypsy.

Now Martin is fool enough to state in front of the Parole Board that he wont be a threat to anyone except those that he considers are trespassing - given that in the past his behaviour has included shooting at apple scrumpers and shooting out his brothers windows after an argument, its clear (and indeed was found in the appeal) that Martin lacks the ability to make the judgement regarding the proper use of force for a given situation.

Hence he remains inside. On one level its like a bloke who stabs someone after a road rage incident saying ""Well I wont do it again as long as noone cuts me up".
 
I wonder what those guys are smoking, and if the Democrats have a stash of it.

Agricola:
On one level its like a bloke who stabs someone after a road rage incident saying ""Well I wont do it again as long as noone cuts me up".
So you're saying someone (ex-cons are people too) should just take a knife to the chest and try to walk away? :rolleyes: Everyone has a right to life, that includes the right to fight back, and if necessary, kill the person or persons that are attempting to kill you. You might not recognize it as a right, but it is.

Kharn
 
Agricola: Its a simple concept, enter someone's house after dark to commit a crime and expect to die; even the Bible says that a homeowner cannot be punished for killing an intruder during the night.

Kharn
 
Which is the nub here. Martin did not face a deadly threat from either of those burglars and yet killed one and wounded another.

So what exactly makes you qualified to determine that the burglars didnt pose a deadly threat to Mr Martin? Would you be willing to bet your life on that? It appears that Mr Martin wasnt.
 
kharn: yep, unfortunately we live in a system of law and rights of man and not according to religious doctrine so your point is invalid.

c_yeager: i can make that assumption because a jury of the mans peers found him guilty of the crime of murder based on the facts of the case.
 
This mindset, the whole notion of protecting criminals, is absolutely baffling to me. It is absolutely no mystery why crime in the UK is skyrocketing. "Come on in and take what you want, even murder and rape us if you like! We won't stop you!"
I don't care what the bahble says about anything. Someone who thinks they have the right to enter another person's home and take their possessions and/or threaten their safety is NOT someone who deserves to be protected from harm from the homeowner. QUITE the contrary! Break into my house while I am home, and you WILL stop a bullet, and the police and Arkansas law will be foursquare behind me! This is exactly as it should be!

Whew, gotta stop and take some deep breaths after reading stuff like this.
Ohmmmmmm..........Ohmmmmmm...........
 
The spin is making me dizzy.

Nearly every point made has been about Tony Martin, rather than whether burglars and other home invaders should be allowed damages for injury suffered in the commission of their crimes. :rolleyes:
 
cz,

that was dealt with in the article itself:

"A second burglar shot by Martin, Brendan Fearon, was granted legal aid to sue him for damages. Fearon's claim was thrown out by Nottingham County Court last month."

noone is saying that burglars should be able to sue those who prevent them committing their crimes, but like it or not they still enjoy the protection of the law when they get shot in the back.
 
Government lawyers...will tell a High Court judge tomorrow that burglars are members of the public who must be protected from violent householders.

I've redacted the above to omit reference to Martin.

Please tell me how the article has dealt with this concept.

The case could help hundreds of criminals bring claims for damages for injury suffered while committing offences.

The statment above is the only thing the article has said about the matter.

Not a positive outcome by any means.

noone is saying that burglars should be able to sue those who prevent them committing their crimes, but like it or not they still enjoy the protection of the law when they get shot in the back.

I don't believe the govt. lawyers are arguing just to protect criminals fleeing the scene. You may think that they are, but I posit that this will hinder every homeowner's attempt to defend themselves and property by making them subject to damages in so doing.
 
cz,

the article doesnt say anything of the kind (one would expect better from the Guardian's Sunday sister paper). the statement of the lawyers:

"It cannot possibly be suggested that members of the public cease to be so whilst committing criminal offences, and whilst society naturally condemns, and punishes such persons judicially, it can not possibly condone their (unlawful) murder or injury."

refers to the criminal liability of a homeowner when in the same situation as Martin, or the chap from Tottenham. The reporter then tries to spin it so as to say that this means that the burglar will find it easier to sue the homeowner - which is patently nonsense.

Like it or not, when you commit an offence you do not lose all your rights as a citizen - thats been the case ever since the days of the Gracchi.
 
In defense of agricola, even through most of the United States, you can't shoot a fleeing criminal in the back with a 12ga. Mr. Martin would have been up for murder in the States, too.

The statements of the attourney concerning Mr. Martin's alleged threat to criminals if he were to be paroled is an insight into the mindset of the police, IMO, and the British government (by association):
The rabble aren't supposed to protect themselves, and burglers need protection from homeowners.
 
"It cannot possibly be suggested that members of the public cease to be so whilst committing criminal offences, and whilst society naturally condemns, and punishes such persons judicially, it can not possibly condone their (unlawful) murder or injury."

Did they really say "unlawful," or is this an "understood" statement in parentheses? If not, then why wouldn't this open up unlimited liability for homeowners?

What exactly are the distinctions for "unlawful"?

Would it be "unlawful" to hit a burglar with a cudgel while they were in the commission of a burglary? Stab them while they were coming at you?

If all means of resistance on the part of the homeowner are "unlawful," then wouldn't he be liable as the writer has suggested? Considering the laws regarding meaningful methods of defense in the UK, I think this is a strong possibility.
 
kharn: yep, unfortunately we live in a system of law and rights of man and not according to religious doctrine so your point is invalid.


Actually, in the civilized world, there is a presumption of intent to cause harm sufficient to justify deadly force when someone enters an occupied residence at night.
 
noone is saying that burglars should be able to sue those who prevent them committing their crimes,

And how exactly is one supposed to prevent dangerous criminals from committing their crimes without using force that may prove to be lethal to a criminal? Perhaps sewing a big letter S on all your clothing? Maybe farting in their general direction?
 
cz:

I dunno, but it was probably added by either the journo or the sub-editor because of the word that comes next (murder) which is of course an unlawful killing. the point is not, as so many here would wish, that a man cannot defend himself in his own home - but rather that just because a burglar has broken into your property does not suspend his protection under law. As many of you are no doubt aware, pretty much all of our legislation regarding weapons recognizes the difference between ones home / other private property and a public place, so the percieved lack ofmeaningful methods of defense in the UK is less applicable (if indeed it ever is)

mute:

you cant 100% prevent people committing crime - even in the idealised CCW world. all you can do is make it as likely as possible that the criminal will face the justice of his or her peers.

buzz:

youre joking, right?
 
Nope, not in the least. You said that the law didn't recognize the principle and I simply stated that most civilized nations do hold precisely that. The common law (which we inherited from pre-socialist Great Britain) was that "a man's home was his castle" (in the non-PC parlance of the time). It basically said that if you break into it when the owner is there and you can have reasonably expected the owner to be there, the law will presume that you chose to commit the crime when the owner was there and thus had an intent to harm the owner. Great Britain has, unfortunately, eliminated this doctrine.

Perhaps our difference is that for me, civilized means respecting the right of self-defense and personal safety, not the right to be free to rob those who are disarmed by goverment fiat.
 
If he gets out the door, then he gets away, to be caught or not later on. But if you were to open fire while he's in the house, IMHO, I doubt if there would be charges given that he is still in the house and still a threat. Is he running for cover or is he running away? A reasonable person would generally believe that a person who has already made the decision to invade your home while you're there is prepared for a confrontation.
 
What if youre asleep? A house with no lights on and someone asleep upstairs looks a lot like a house with no lights on and someone on holiday, especially to the casual criminal. The law must take the standpoint that one can only take a life if you or someone else is directly threatened by another. Simply breaking into your house is not enough justification for the killing of another - there must be other factors present.

Do you think the Martin killing was justified?
 
Why err on the side of the criminal, agricola? We have no way of knowing the intent of the criminal. We have no way of knowing how far the criminal was willing to go. It's entirely possible that even if the perp thought the house was empty that he'd be willing to kill anyone inside.
 
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