cardboardkiller
Member
I favor an auto over a revolver. Yeah my SV cost more, but it looks better, I can shoot it faster and it holds 18 rounds of .40 with my short mags.
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Handy
Guest
NJ had one gun failure of their 20 year old duty weapons that I've heard of. They are still carrying them because the Browning based SW99s they bought JAMMED TOO MUCH.
This isn't a P7 thread, anyway. There are only 20 or so pistols that meet the criteria I stated-not much in the way of development. Why haven't more guns of this type been developed? Geez, just look at some of the ridiculous, emotional responses generated in this thread. Try selling a P9S to this crowd.
Blackhawk,
You seem to be the only one maintaining that there isn't a difference. Check out some of the pistols that come with test targets. Golly, you could even try shooting a variety and see for yourself.
If someone ever had the balls to do it, they could win a bullseye match with a High Point and a trigger job. Wouldn't that be an upset?
This isn't a P7 thread, anyway. There are only 20 or so pistols that meet the criteria I stated-not much in the way of development. Why haven't more guns of this type been developed? Geez, just look at some of the ridiculous, emotional responses generated in this thread. Try selling a P9S to this crowd.
Blackhawk,
You seem to be the only one maintaining that there isn't a difference. Check out some of the pistols that come with test targets. Golly, you could even try shooting a variety and see for yourself.
If someone ever had the balls to do it, they could win a bullseye match with a High Point and a trigger job. Wouldn't that be an upset?
Mike Irwin
Member
When I was with American Rifleman we tested the most accurate handgun we had ever had in the 100 year history of the magazine.
It was the Freedom Arms .22 revolver, certainly no cheapy. It cut groups of well under an inch all day long.
The second most accurate was also a Freedom Revolver.
Smoked every other gun we ever had, including extremely high cost 1911s.
Those Freedom Arms can be yours, too, for only $2,500.
It was the Freedom Arms .22 revolver, certainly no cheapy. It cut groups of well under an inch all day long.
The second most accurate was also a Freedom Revolver.
Smoked every other gun we ever had, including extremely high cost 1911s.
Those Freedom Arms can be yours, too, for only $2,500.
Although Handy has a valid point. I.E. that fixed barrel guns on average can be made to be very accurate with less hand work than the Colt/Browning what we must look at is not the individual tree in the forest so to speak but the entire forest itself.
When all factors are considered the Colt/Browning always comes out on top. A target pistol is a target pistol and may be fine when shooting in spotless white trousers while sipping tea and bragging to your young lady friend what a dandy offhand shot you are but when the pistol is used for serious buisness as in the mud of Flanders all points in a pistols design must be taken into consideration.
I have never seen even a simple blow back or fixed barrel pistol have the reliablity or the the ease of field maintenace that the completely strippable 1911 has.
I have never seen the more modern wonder guns made of stamped sheet metal and plastic as truly rugged as the all forged steel 1911's.
I have never seen a gun more successfully modified into so many configurations than the 1911.
I have never seen a gun the is more capable of being changed from an adequate combat arm with pedestrian accuracy to a super target gun capable of one hole groups than the 1911.
I, like Handy, love super accuracy but I also love a weapon that is a work of art and not just a pile of stamped sheet metal and plastic.
To me all the hand work that make such guns like the 1911 or the Sig-Nuehausen P210 so accurate is the pride of ownership in owning a weapon that was made of quality materiels and assembled by skilled craftsmen. This is why guns like the 1911 have such a big following. Owning a 1911 that is super accurate is a wonder to behold because the gun was never originally designed to be a super target gun but due to its outstanding design it was capeable of being coverted into such a shooting machine.
The 1911's quality and craftsmenship along with its glorius history of desperate men fighting in desperate battles for the freedom from oppression of the enslaved peoples of the world has no equal in the annuals of history..
And once again history is about to unfold. The impending war will once again have U.S. troops fighting at the ends of the earth and with at least some of them will be armed with 1911 pistol, the pistol that refuses to die and will not go away and that will work and keep on working even in the wind blown sands of the desert. .
When all factors are considered the Colt/Browning always comes out on top. A target pistol is a target pistol and may be fine when shooting in spotless white trousers while sipping tea and bragging to your young lady friend what a dandy offhand shot you are but when the pistol is used for serious buisness as in the mud of Flanders all points in a pistols design must be taken into consideration.
I have never seen even a simple blow back or fixed barrel pistol have the reliablity or the the ease of field maintenace that the completely strippable 1911 has.
I have never seen the more modern wonder guns made of stamped sheet metal and plastic as truly rugged as the all forged steel 1911's.
I have never seen a gun more successfully modified into so many configurations than the 1911.
I have never seen a gun the is more capable of being changed from an adequate combat arm with pedestrian accuracy to a super target gun capable of one hole groups than the 1911.
I, like Handy, love super accuracy but I also love a weapon that is a work of art and not just a pile of stamped sheet metal and plastic.
To me all the hand work that make such guns like the 1911 or the Sig-Nuehausen P210 so accurate is the pride of ownership in owning a weapon that was made of quality materiels and assembled by skilled craftsmen. This is why guns like the 1911 have such a big following. Owning a 1911 that is super accurate is a wonder to behold because the gun was never originally designed to be a super target gun but due to its outstanding design it was capeable of being coverted into such a shooting machine.
The 1911's quality and craftsmenship along with its glorius history of desperate men fighting in desperate battles for the freedom from oppression of the enslaved peoples of the world has no equal in the annuals of history..
And once again history is about to unfold. The impending war will once again have U.S. troops fighting at the ends of the earth and with at least some of them will be armed with 1911 pistol, the pistol that refuses to die and will not go away and that will work and keep on working even in the wind blown sands of the desert. .
bad_dad_brad
Member
The SIG P210, a Browning-Petter design, is pretty dang accurate.
Browning designs are robust and combat accurate. But it is, after all, only a pistol. If you are shooting at something more than 25 yards away, that is not defensive, which is what a pistol is for, so why aren't you using a rifle?
The Browning design, especially in the SIG and Glock Browning-Petter derivatives are simple, elegant, and foolproof. And they are accurate.
Browning designs are robust and combat accurate. But it is, after all, only a pistol. If you are shooting at something more than 25 yards away, that is not defensive, which is what a pistol is for, so why aren't you using a rifle?
The Browning design, especially in the SIG and Glock Browning-Petter derivatives are simple, elegant, and foolproof. And they are accurate.
MarineTech
Member
I would like to approach this argument from a different angle in defense of the 1911.
Yes, the shooters that use the 1911 are widespread and numerous. They are willing to spend $2000-4000 for a custom 1911 to compete.
Now, if these shooters are constantly looking for an edge, and they are not afraid to spend that type of money, then why are they NOT spending that money to gain an even higher amount of supposed accuracy as is available in the P9 as you seem so enamored with? I don't know of any shooter that is not willing to accept a proven technology if it would enhance their ability to win a match. Certainly the same amount of money applied to the P9 would bring it up to an incredible level of accuracy, the likes of which would become legendary in shooting circles.
Yet....... They don't.
Now why would that be?
Is it because the P9 does not offer the supposed level of accuracy that you claim? Possibly could it be that the P9 is not nearly as dependable or long lasting as the 1911s in question? Might it be that the P9 does not have as much comfort for these shooters as a well built 1911?
My... my.... my.... Why wouldn't these world class competitors who strive daily to better their skills for competition and are intimately familiar with the accuracy of firearms not accept your reknowned P9.
Possibly because they are privy to facts that the average shooter and competitor are not privy to, but it could also be that the 1911 is just a better tool for the job.
It is also interesting to note that HK ceased production on the P9 in 1978 after less than 10 years of production and according to the source I'm looking at, with only 485 total guns produced. Now why would that be if it is such an incredible piece of firearm engineering. Yet the 1911 that you so malign is still being produced by numerous companies almost 100 years after its debut, and with total numbers in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.
Yes, the shooters that use the 1911 are widespread and numerous. They are willing to spend $2000-4000 for a custom 1911 to compete.
Now, if these shooters are constantly looking for an edge, and they are not afraid to spend that type of money, then why are they NOT spending that money to gain an even higher amount of supposed accuracy as is available in the P9 as you seem so enamored with? I don't know of any shooter that is not willing to accept a proven technology if it would enhance their ability to win a match. Certainly the same amount of money applied to the P9 would bring it up to an incredible level of accuracy, the likes of which would become legendary in shooting circles.
Yet....... They don't.
Now why would that be?
Is it because the P9 does not offer the supposed level of accuracy that you claim? Possibly could it be that the P9 is not nearly as dependable or long lasting as the 1911s in question? Might it be that the P9 does not have as much comfort for these shooters as a well built 1911?
My... my.... my.... Why wouldn't these world class competitors who strive daily to better their skills for competition and are intimately familiar with the accuracy of firearms not accept your reknowned P9.
Possibly because they are privy to facts that the average shooter and competitor are not privy to, but it could also be that the 1911 is just a better tool for the job.
It is also interesting to note that HK ceased production on the P9 in 1978 after less than 10 years of production and according to the source I'm looking at, with only 485 total guns produced. Now why would that be if it is such an incredible piece of firearm engineering. Yet the 1911 that you so malign is still being produced by numerous companies almost 100 years after its debut, and with total numbers in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.
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Interesting, thank you for posting. Whether this is true or not, and whether I agree with it or not, it is certainly more interesting than reading another thread entitled something like; what is your faviorite 9mm.
The idea that you have to spend thousands to make a 1911 accurate is ridiculous. Clark Custom Guns will do an accuracy job on your 1911 for $300 with an Accuracy guarantee: 10 shot group measuring 2.5" or less @ 50 yards with match grade ammunition. While buying a 1911, and paying another $300 isn't cheap, it is certainly a far cry from the $2000 figure mentioned in several of these posts.
Just because you can't outshoot your current handgun, doesn't mean that having a more accurate handgun isn't going to make you shoot better. The accuracy you can attain from a given handgun is a product of at least two factors. Your skill, and the intrinsic accuracy of the gun. It is a combination of these two factors that determine how well you shoot. Improving either one, will improve your ability to shoot accurately. Assuming your skill level remains the same, having a more accurate gun should improve your scores. For example, let' say we have a 1911 that is capable of shooting 4" at 50 yards from a machine rest. Then you take the same gun and on your best day you can shoot a 6" group at 50 yards. The gun can shoot 4" and your skill level adds another 2" to the group size. Now we hand you another gun, one that is capable of shooting 2.5" groups at 50 yards. Your own groups should also shrink. The idea that accruacy doesn't matter unless you can personally shoot that well is crazy to me.
Innovation is a great thing, and progress is always fought tooth and nail along the way. If it were possible to produce a better gun design that is more accurate while not costing any more than a current handgun, I am all for it.
The idea that you have to spend thousands to make a 1911 accurate is ridiculous. Clark Custom Guns will do an accuracy job on your 1911 for $300 with an Accuracy guarantee: 10 shot group measuring 2.5" or less @ 50 yards with match grade ammunition. While buying a 1911, and paying another $300 isn't cheap, it is certainly a far cry from the $2000 figure mentioned in several of these posts.
Just because you can't outshoot your current handgun, doesn't mean that having a more accurate handgun isn't going to make you shoot better. The accuracy you can attain from a given handgun is a product of at least two factors. Your skill, and the intrinsic accuracy of the gun. It is a combination of these two factors that determine how well you shoot. Improving either one, will improve your ability to shoot accurately. Assuming your skill level remains the same, having a more accurate gun should improve your scores. For example, let' say we have a 1911 that is capable of shooting 4" at 50 yards from a machine rest. Then you take the same gun and on your best day you can shoot a 6" group at 50 yards. The gun can shoot 4" and your skill level adds another 2" to the group size. Now we hand you another gun, one that is capable of shooting 2.5" groups at 50 yards. Your own groups should also shrink. The idea that accruacy doesn't matter unless you can personally shoot that well is crazy to me.
Innovation is a great thing, and progress is always fought tooth and nail along the way. If it were possible to produce a better gun design that is more accurate while not costing any more than a current handgun, I am all for it.
444,
You are right. You don't have to out shoot your handgun to be able to benifit form its accuracy. The more accurate a handgun is, the better your accuracy should be.
Handy,
I love the Browning desing. I own a 1911, a CZ 75 B, and I sold my BHP. They are great guns. I shoot them often. I will be at the range this weekend burning up a couple hundred rounds.
Still a new design, which could be more accurate would not hurt. I keep hearing and reading about the reliability of JMB designs and how these guns cannot be matched. I can remember the same being said about revolvers as duty weapons. Now we are hard pressed to see anyone carrying a revolver as a duty weapon.
No one will make us give up our 1911's, if another design comes along.
You are right. You don't have to out shoot your handgun to be able to benifit form its accuracy. The more accurate a handgun is, the better your accuracy should be.
Handy,
I love the Browning desing. I own a 1911, a CZ 75 B, and I sold my BHP. They are great guns. I shoot them often. I will be at the range this weekend burning up a couple hundred rounds.
Still a new design, which could be more accurate would not hurt. I keep hearing and reading about the reliability of JMB designs and how these guns cannot be matched. I can remember the same being said about revolvers as duty weapons. Now we are hard pressed to see anyone carrying a revolver as a duty weapon.
No one will make us give up our 1911's, if another design comes along.
MoNsTeR
Member
Sweet crispety crap, you guys are so negative!
Handy offers us this interesting thought, fodder for intelligent conversation, and half the posts here are just telling him to shove it! Is it suddenly criminal to ponder the idea that a hundred-year-old handgun design might just not be the final word? Is it so unthinkable that there might be some innovation left to explore in this industry?
Y'know, I like the 1911 too. I have one and I really enjoy shooting it, and I want to buy another one when I can. But it's not perfect, and I'm sure even JMB knew that. In all this fanboy mudslinging, an interesting question has actually been raised: why, if fixed-barrel autos could be so superior in accuracy, are they not being demanded by the hardcore competitors? It's too bad no one seems to be interested in answering this question, only in bringing up irrelevant points about combat reliability, and praising their favorite short-recoil design.
CHILL OUT, take off your fanboy hats, pop open a beer, and let's shoot the breeze like we're not a bunch of jerks, OK?
Handy offers us this interesting thought, fodder for intelligent conversation, and half the posts here are just telling him to shove it! Is it suddenly criminal to ponder the idea that a hundred-year-old handgun design might just not be the final word? Is it so unthinkable that there might be some innovation left to explore in this industry?
Y'know, I like the 1911 too. I have one and I really enjoy shooting it, and I want to buy another one when I can. But it's not perfect, and I'm sure even JMB knew that. In all this fanboy mudslinging, an interesting question has actually been raised: why, if fixed-barrel autos could be so superior in accuracy, are they not being demanded by the hardcore competitors? It's too bad no one seems to be interested in answering this question, only in bringing up irrelevant points about combat reliability, and praising their favorite short-recoil design.
CHILL OUT, take off your fanboy hats, pop open a beer, and let's shoot the breeze like we're not a bunch of jerks, OK?
Gerald McDonald
Member
Actually MoNster Handy did answer, its because there arent many around. Now if you are asking me why all of the comp shooters arent lined up with fixed barrel autos "beats the heck out of me, thats why I asked, but if you can tell me who knows the answer I will ask again" and as an aside, I dont mind new ideas I just like to see them backed up with hard facts before I choose to fall in line.
Gerald
and as an aside, I dont mind new ideas I just like to see them backed up with hard facts before I choose to fall in line.Gerald
Zak Smith
Member
To throw a shoe in the soup: The Makarov is widely regarded as both simple & reliable. It has a fixed barrel.
Are there any fixed-barrel action choices besides: gas-delayed (e.g. NCG Gas Gun, P7), roller-locked (e.g. CZ52), and direct blowback (e.g. Makarov) ?
Are there any pistol actions that are based on either an inertia-lock action (such as the Benneli M1Super90) or a barrel that moves only the lock-distance (about 0.1"?) exactly parallel to the slide, and then stops?
-z
Are there any fixed-barrel action choices besides: gas-delayed (e.g. NCG Gas Gun, P7), roller-locked (e.g. CZ52), and direct blowback (e.g. Makarov) ?
Are there any pistol actions that are based on either an inertia-lock action (such as the Benneli M1Super90) or a barrel that moves only the lock-distance (about 0.1"?) exactly parallel to the slide, and then stops?
-z
I have posted about my interest in fixed barrel designs before. I almost bought a P9S once. Still wishing I hadn't passed it up. What about the P-38 design? I shoot a lot of .22 and on most of those designs the sights are attached to the barrel. There is a practical limit to the blowback design. A fixed barrel is more accurate than a tilting design. Whether the sights are directly attached to the barrel on a blowback probably doesn't make a huge difference - the fact that the barrel doesn't move every time does. I think it would be pretty cool to have a Ruger MKII design in .380 or maybe 9mm, but the recoil spring would have to be pretty stout for 9mm. How many guns use a fixed barrel design in higher power centerfire rounds? Or even some type of locking mechanism that keeps the barrel moving only along the bore axis? I do think the thread is interesting. Accuracy is always something I am interested in, but that is because I primarily shoot at targets. They don't shoot back. Sport shooters spend money to make combat guns into target pistols. Very few designs start out as a "target" design. Most of the pistols discussed are designed as combat sidearms. Still, I think that designers could make a more accurate gun from the start and not compromise reliability. As much as I like HP's, 1911's, and CZ's all of which *can* be made pretty accurate, I think that new designs should be explored.
Gerald McDonald
Member
I would like to state that the title "Brownings Legacy: the in inaccurate autoloader" is a wee bit imflammatory. I hardly think the historians of the arms field look at JMB and say Tisk,Tisk its a shame he will be remembered for that lousy old 1911. Its more likely he will be remembered for what he was, one of the worlds foremost arm designers.
That Handy or MoNster would act suprised at the results of the posting amazes me. Handy wanted to stir the bucket or he would have named the post a little differently.
Gerald
That Handy or MoNster would act suprised at the results of the posting amazes me. Handy wanted to stir the bucket or he would have named the post a little differently.
Gerald
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Handy
Guest
Gerald, it's what I honestly believe. The 1911 was a good gun, but we should move on. Endearance to the old design is keeping us back. The firearms industry is one of the least innovative, backwards groups. They're just starting to use titanium! It's been used in bicycles since the mid-70s!
Zak, the CZ-52 is actually recoil as well and prey to all the same problems accuracy wise. Your other alternative are the Mauser, Luger, Borchardt, Lahti guns from the past, but modernized and simplified.
Zak, the CZ-52 is actually recoil as well and prey to all the same problems accuracy wise. Your other alternative are the Mauser, Luger, Borchardt, Lahti guns from the past, but modernized and simplified.
The Luger bbl does MOVE but it moves just straight back and forth so it should not affect accuracy any more than a fixed bbl. When I've field stripped a Luger, I had the impression that the bbl and bbl extension is like a little field piece and maybe that was what inspired the designer?
The bbl goes straight back until the projections on the frame break the toggle joint which continues on its own. When the toggle returns everything goes back into battery. Because of the small size of the toggle parts it is impracticable to try to improve it as it exists. The Luger cocks on closing and that is a contributor to the jamming problem as the inertia of the closing stroke is interrupted by the striker spring opposing it.
I believe if somebody can build something that works and is more accurate than a C/B type target pistol, the world will beat a path to their door, especially if it is cheaper to buy than a custom 1911 type.
The bbl goes straight back until the projections on the frame break the toggle joint which continues on its own. When the toggle returns everything goes back into battery. Because of the small size of the toggle parts it is impracticable to try to improve it as it exists. The Luger cocks on closing and that is a contributor to the jamming problem as the inertia of the closing stroke is interrupted by the striker spring opposing it.
I believe if somebody can build something that works and is more accurate than a C/B type target pistol, the world will beat a path to their door, especially if it is cheaper to buy than a custom 1911 type.
MoNsTeR
Member
I am surprised. I'm surprised that people reacted by pissing all over this thread instead of offering their dissenting opinions in a friendly manner. I expect much more from this community, and I'm frankly shocked at what I've seen here, not to mention the idea that you find it par for the course.
Tamara
Senior Member
Handy,
If someone could, they would've. They don't go to those matches to show off their guns, they go to win. If another pistol looked like it was going to be the hot ticket, folks would jump to it en masse just to keep the competitive edge. It almost happened in the early '90s in IPSC with the CZ75/Witness, but its run was shortlived.
If someone could, they would've. They don't go to those matches to show off their guns, they go to win. If another pistol looked like it was going to be the hot ticket, folks would jump to it en masse just to keep the competitive edge. It almost happened in the early '90s in IPSC with the CZ75/Witness, but its run was shortlived.
Gerald McDonald
Member
Handy you really didnt think it was a little inflammatory to say that JMB's legacy was an inaccurate autoloader? I would think between all of his designs from Winchester lever actions, to the Auto 5 recoil operated shotguns, to the potato digger machine guns, to the BAR of WWI and WWII fame, would be the legacy of JMB. Also to say handgun mfgs are backwards is a little skewed. I remember when your choices of autoloading pistol were limited to 1911's, BHP's and S&W 39/59. If you are saying they are backward because of the recoil operated action, its because they work and work well.
No flame intended I just dont see it that way.
Gerald
No flame intended I just dont see it that way.
Gerald
Gerald McDonald
Member
MoNster, this is all pretty mild so I wouldnt be too shocked, What I am asking for is proof. Where is the proof that the P9 was a god send to us shooters. Why havent the pistol champs lined up to go to this operating design? If you consider disagreement with your idea negative, then that will be the way you have to look at it, because I disagree. If you know the answer to the questions I have asked please enlighten me. Who knows if proof is offered I may change my mind.
Gerald
Gerald
You guys are sad. What kind of a person are you if you won't listen to reason because it disrespects one of your favorite handgun designs? BFD. He was posting some well-thought-out remarks that we can all learn from. As usual, the 1911 fanboy crowd refuses to try and learn but just throws out the same old lame comments. I like 1911s, but I like the truth even more.
As you were....
As you were....
Gerald McDonald
Member
If you repeat it long enough maybe somebody will believe it.
Gerald
Gerald
gryphon
Member
Handy is entitled to his opinions, and we entitled to ours. I love it when people start arguing that the original poster shouldn't be checked on his opinion.
When the first line of the post sets up the tone of the body as being "1911: the inaccurate autoloader", how do you expect people to react? I certainly would not chastise them for voicing their opinion.
My only other comment is to the "why can't we move along to another design". Give me another design that categorically out performs the other current designs and I'm sure we would all add one of those to our gun safes. Until then, we do what we can with what we have. My 1911 can perform in the role that I need it to, so for me, I need nothing else.
When the first line of the post sets up the tone of the body as being "1911: the inaccurate autoloader", how do you expect people to react? I certainly would not chastise them for voicing their opinion.
My only other comment is to the "why can't we move along to another design". Give me another design that categorically out performs the other current designs and I'm sure we would all add one of those to our gun safes. Until then, we do what we can with what we have. My 1911 can perform in the role that I need it to, so for me, I need nothing else.
Zak Smith
Member
A big part of practical accuracy is the quality of the trigger. A good 1911 trigger sets the standard by which others are judged. And this is coming from a guy who doesn't own any 1911's, yet.
-z
-z
I think we are getting off the main point that Handy was talking about. His point was, I believe, that fixed bbl autos can be made cheaper and more accurate than typical drop bbl designs.
I think it is clear that he is correct. Look at the cheaper guns that have surprisingly good accuracy, Bersa, Makarov, etc. They are probably more accurate than they would be if they had moving bbls.
BTW, the most accurate auto I have ever had was a "factory custom" Colt Commander so I am not biased..
I think it is clear that he is correct. Look at the cheaper guns that have surprisingly good accuracy, Bersa, Makarov, etc. They are probably more accurate than they would be if they had moving bbls.
BTW, the most accurate auto I have ever had was a "factory custom" Colt Commander so I am not biased..
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
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It is interesting that Handy's principle examples (P7, P9) are all HK guns that cost over a grand. Which is about how much you would spend on a basic 1911 plus the installation of a Kart or Bar-Sto barrel to... make it exactly as accurate as a P7 or P9.
If comparing exotic $1,000+ HK novelty guns to $500 service pistols isn't a case of apples and oranges, I don't know what is. Sure, they have fixed barrels. Sure, they have interesting and novel operating systems. Sure they are accurate. They are also fiendishly expensive, and in the case of the P7 aren't even suited to use as a military service weapon.
Show me a $500 NIB, fixed-barrel, delayed blowback gun that you can shoot when dirty and you might have my attention.
If comparing exotic $1,000+ HK novelty guns to $500 service pistols isn't a case of apples and oranges, I don't know what is. Sure, they have fixed barrels. Sure, they have interesting and novel operating systems. Sure they are accurate. They are also fiendishly expensive, and in the case of the P7 aren't even suited to use as a military service weapon.
Show me a $500 NIB, fixed-barrel, delayed blowback gun that you can shoot when dirty and you might have my attention.
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