Browning's legacy: The inaccurate autoloader.

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Zak Smith,

A big part of practical accuracy is the quality of the trigger. A good 1911 trigger sets the standard by which others are judged. And this is coming from a guy who doesn't own any 1911's, yet.
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That's a good point; I think too many people assume the 1911 is coasting entirely on nostalgia (I know I used to), when in truth its success probably owes more to the trigger, the slim grips, the trigger, the low bore axis, the trigger, and the trigger. ;)

It'll be interesting to see how the new NCG "gas gun" 1911 conversions do. I predict that in the next few years they will make serious inroads into the (admittedly very conservative) bullseye scene, offering as they do a combination of the benefits of a fixed barrel and the 1911s simple, mechanically direct trigger.
 
Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of real world examples to sight, because they have never sold as well as old JMB's master work.

I like sighting the P9S because it dispenses with a gas system, is closely based on a very tough rifle, was cheap when in production and is a military gun. This is still the service pistol for Greece and was produced for more than a decade: I think more than 400 pistols were made.:p The Seals probably have that many in storage.

Anyway, the gun was reasonably priced, widely distributed and very reliable. 9mm versions in decent shape can still be had for $650 or so, so go buy one if you want to argue. A fairly beat up example will out shoot all but the most custom recoil guns.

As to "Why haven't BLANK or BLANK started using these if they are so great" I don't have a clue, besides the general backward thinking that I notice most everywhere in this community. We like what we like, don't bother us.


Being a little inflammatory is different than being rude. Or is everyone here related to Browning and taking this personally? You should get mad at the Army: the only Browning related gun they use anymore is the M2. Almost everything else was inspired by German designs.
 
So what are some good examples...

I might like to try one or buy one... they must be in production now, I'd rather have a new pistol.
Thanks
 
Actually Handy I was not arguing that the fixed barrel is not more accurate. Just that it answers a question that no one ( well not many) are asking. The only examples in a major caliber are extremely expensive and not very many are produced. I think shooters as a whole are pretty progressive, look how fast Glocks came up the ladder. I for one think the Glocks and others are great pistols and have owned quite a few, but they dont do anything or everything that much better than the HP or 1911.(for me) the same can be said for gas guns, there are some things they are better at but in the overall view they need some improvements. Will they get there, I suspect as more companys get on the band wagon you will see more and more of them.

If you didnt want to stir the pot you could have labeled your post "The attributes of the fixed barrel" and you would have had many people agreeing with you. As for the govt not using Browning designed guns, hey all things change its not that big of a deal, if you do not like JMB designs its your choice, but to imply they are substandard is false. They do exactly what I ask.

Its similar to a comment I heard at the shooting range a few months ago. There was a guy (who was old enough to know better) telling another guy that his S&W 625 was a dumb gun for self protection. I listened to this argument for 20 minutes in the breakroom while waiting for a lane to clear. The guy with the 625 was literally chewing the center out of the target at 7 yards shooting D/A. Trust me for him it wasnt a dumb gun, he could cover my butt anytime if that was his normal shooting. What works for you may not work for me. I dont look at this as argument just not agreeing:D
Gerald
 
Handy,

As to "Why haven't BLANK or BLANK started using these if they are so great" I don't have a clue, besides the general backward thinking that I notice most everywhere in this community.
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Fine argument, except there's no column for "the judges like it" in bullseye scoring. Also, why are the SEALs P9Ss in storage while their P-226s are in their holsters?

Oh, and Greece does use the P9S. Any nation so far on the cutting edge of military technology is sure to be emulated by everybody. (They also use the Leopard I, M-26 [in reserves up until recently], A-7, and much other bleeding edge hardware. ;) )
 
"The HK P9S, which continues to see combat use, also offers 1" at 25m groups, yet retains the reliability and durability of its big brother, the G3 rifle. It takes little use of this piece to make a believer out of any decent shooter." --Handy

The HK P9S, while accurate, is not a wise choice for 'combat use' based on the fact that the take-down button is located inside the trigger-guard and lends itself to accidental engagement during an attempted gun-grab. It is very easy to pull the slide and barrel off the frame during weapon retention exercises.

Further, P9S magazines are known to develop cracks in their feed lips from hard use or if left loaded for an extended period of time.

Of course, unloading your magazines will prevent this, but empty magazines are not much use if your weapon is intended for 'combat use', are they? :rolleyes:
 
Browning's legacy: The reliable autoloader

Perhaps we haven't seen an improvement because men of the stature of Browning, Luger, Mauser, etc. aren't alive and designing firearms today? Instead of slandering Browning, why don't you build a better mousetrap? If a superior design exists (one with similar qualities all around: accuracy, reliability, maintainability, ergonomics, cost, etc.) it should be easy to sell. Prior to Browning, autoloaders were bulkier, heavier, less reliable, less durable, more expensive, less accurate, just plain inferior. Since then, there have been some improvements, but it is arguable that there haven't been any significantly superior designs all around.

George
 
For what are handguns designed? To stop and/or kill at very short range and as a last ditch weapon of opportunity. Accuracy is the least important attribute of a handgun. Reliability is the most important attribute and I would suggest that Browning designed or derived pistols have been shown to be the best in this area ( the P-38/P1 and Beretta do well to their credit). Even Walther has gone to a Browning lockup in the P-88 and P-99.

Bullseye accuracy is great and like everybody else here I appreciate it, but it isn't going to save the bacon at 7 yards or less, don't confuse games with the real world.

Browning's legacy is reliability.
 
if you were to fix the sights on the barrel of a browning design, it would be just as accurate as a fixed barrel gun.

firestar, the vast majority of guns are NOT target pistols. I predict that you will see NO new (precision) target pistols from a major maufacturer, because regardless of how good they are, major manufacturer's can't sell enough pay for the tooling and overhead. Also the 4" number I quoted is the upper limit of accuracy, most guns are significantly more accurate. I am not aware of sand bagging a revolver as being a common combat technique. :D

Making a gun twice as accurate doesn not make your group sizes half as big.

Group Size = gun group + shooter group

In a gun that is twice as accurate,

Groups Size = gun group/2 + shooter group

I used to play with tose equations quite a bit when I first got into bullseye. Go ahead and play with them its pretty interesting. Now figure that in a fight, an excellent shooter probably shoots about a 24" inch groups at seven yards. If you play with those equations for a while, you will find that accuracy in a service gun isn't all that important.

Handy, you are correct that I haven't fired 10's of thousands of round through fixed barrel guns (not counting revolvers and .22's). I don't have the financial wherewithal to shoot 50 of 60 thousand rounds, cleaning every 1000 rounds through a couple of different pistols that I am not going to be competing with, just to see how reliable they are.

I have however fired about 100,000 rounds through browning actions, and presided over tests on browning guns totalling 500 or 600 thousand rounds. How many times have you fired 500 or a thousand rounds through your gas guns without any cleaning? Please enlighten, me, because I honestly don't know how well they perform.

Blackhawk, while the gun is still locked up when the bullet leaves the barrel, the gun will lock up slightly differently every time. If the sights were on the barrel, that wouldn't matter, but the sights are on the slide so the sights are never lined up exactly the same way twice.

Putting the sights on the barrel of a tilt barrel gun would improve the mechanical accuracy, but would halve (sometimes more than halve) the sight radius of the gun. That is probably a poor tradeoff. I am not familiar with the P9S, but I imagaine the sights are still on the slide.
 
I have designed a simple, cheap mechanically delayed blowback system. Further, I've figured out how to make a replaceable top end for a 1911 frame. The design is unique enough that I should be able to get a patent. I can see no reason why it wouldn't work with all autoloader calibers. It should also scale up to rifle use.

Will I ever do anything with it? If this thread is any guide, no. The "best" way of cycling an autoloader was invented 100 years ago and I'll be damned if I'd risk my income trying to convince anyone that there may be a superior system. Everyone already knows better, especially those who have never spent any time with any of the guns discussed here.


It would be impossible to sell a rotary engine Mazda to a group deaply involved in a Ford vs. Chevy debate. "Whadya mean it ain't got a V-8?"

Super.
 
Handy,

Truly, the martyr complex doesn't become you.

Do you really believe that not a single gun collector/military or LE type/IPSC competitor/IDPA gamer/bullseye shooter/gun designer, other than yourself, has any experience at all with these type of weapons? That you're a lone Jeremiah in the wilderness and everybody else is wilfully blind to their totally superior advantages?

(If this was an auto board, I'd tell you all the problems with the Wankel, but that's another story altogether... Here's a hint: why do you not see many 5 year-old 3rd Gen RX-7s for sale? To find out, go to the web and search about the common fate of these cars, and why Peter Farrell is going to need to branch out into other areas of tuning if he wants to keep making house payments.)
 
Putting the sights on the barrel of a tilt barrel gun would improve the mechanical accuracy, but would halve (sometimes more than halve) the sight radius of the gun. That is probably a poor tradeoff. I am not familiar with the P9S, but I imagaine the sights are still on the slide.

Interesting that you mentioned this. The Browning Competiton GP model had an extented barrel that the front sights rode on and so did the competiton model of the Sig P210 Neuhausen.

Perhaps two of the most accurate 9mm's ever made. My own Sig-Neuhausern P210 (standard Danish contract military model) outshoots every handgun both custom and standard that I have ever owned or fired. In this class of precision made weapon the sights on the barrel have proven only to give one an extended sighting radius and if there is any increase in accuracy I would be hard pressed to see the difference. Theoretically it should be more accurate but practically speaking you are probably talking about splitting hairs.

AS far as the Hk P9, it was one of the first of the plastic and high tech sheet metal pistols that was a little too far ahead of its time. To say it was not well received would be an understatement. HK's low sales eventually put a nail in its coffin. Now that it is a collectors item a lot more people are interested in this gun and the climate of acceptance with the plethoria of new plastic and sheet metal pistols on the market puts the older P9 in a much more favorable light than when it was first introduced so many years ago.

I really think that if this weapon was reintroduced and produced in a country with lower labor costs it would be very price competitive with much of what is being made today. It might even become very popular with the kool aid crowd. It would still remain only a curiosity with the old foxes and the price would have to be very low to attract them into a purchase.

Although it had very good workmanship and accuracy the materiels used in its construction took it out of the class of a total quality weapon. It will never rank up there with the forged steel classic quality guns of yesteryear.

A good weapon, well yes, but lets not even try to compare it to an original 1911 or original High Power.
 
Handy wrote:
You seem to be the only one maintaining that there isn't a difference.
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You seem to have a gift for missing the point!

You claimed there is a difference and that it can be demonstrated. I merely asked for the exact test method and protocol for demonstrating that.

I've spent decades comparing apples to apples among different designs and distinguishing them. What I'm claiming is that JMB's locked breech pistol design can be made to tolerances that make the breech/barrel lockup every bit as "fixed" as any blowback design.

How many powerful cartridge locked breech pistol manufacturers, assemblers, customizers are there? Hundreds...? More...?

How many are there of blowback pistols? 1? 5...?

Among all those LB makers, how many of them hold the tolerances and do the fitting to make their products hold the original JMB design criteria? IMO, not only not all, not many.

Whether or not you realize it, your point is that fixed barrel pistols are easier to make consistently accurate than more complicated, multi-advantaged locked breech pistols. Duh!

JMB's legacy is a pistol design that can handle large, powerful cartridges with high reliability and relatively gentle shooting characteristics.
 
Handy wrote:
I have designed a simple, cheap mechanically delayed blowback system. Further, I've figured out how to make a replaceable top end for a 1911 frame. The design is unique enough that I should be able to get a patent. I can see no reason why it wouldn't work with all autoloader calibers. It should also scale up to rifle use.
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Aha! You are a frustrated inventor!

The main failing of inventors is that they fall in love with their inventions thereby losing objectivity and practical viewpoints.

The Wankle is not even a rotary engine having relative movement between the major and minor axes that every sealed chamber engine must have. It has zillions of design compromises compared to a simple reciprocating piston that send its wear index through the ceiling.

Prove your design. Make one in .45 ACP that's in the same size and weight envelope as a Taurus PT-145 (or a M1911A1 if you lack confidence in your design). Then shoot the 2 (or 3) guns side by side. You will discover that the genius of JMB is shown by a design that reduces the perceptible recoil impulse of large, powerful cartridges to a level that's comfortable for AVERAGE shooters to handle.
 
Blackhawk,

The NCG Gas Gun people allege that there will be less felt recoil with their design than with a standard "JMB" 1911. Is this consistent or inconsistent with your prediction of the results of the hypothetical test for Handy?

thanks
Zak
 
Seems like we discussed the NCG Gas Gun at some length on TFL. If I remember corrrectly, there were some posts there by users who'd tried them. I never have, but the modification doesn't seem to be gaining a foothold of any type as I would expect it to if it matched the hype. Their $175 installation charge for the $425 barrel suggests that some gunsmithing is involved. What you have is a $600 modification to a supplied 1911 to get the results they claim. I'm left wondering why they don't just jump into the fray and offer the complete gun with their system? Maybe they have, but maybe they can't.

Anyway, Handy may have a viable design to compete with the "standard" JMB locked breech design, but just as the NCG Gas Gun may be a viable competitor, the standard to beat on all counts is the JMB design.
 
Handy, from your tone it sounds as though JMB's 100-year-old design has to suck for yours to be any good. If that is indeed your premise, then you will certainly fail.

However, it seems much more likely that both his idea and yours could be functional, and give one the proverbial choice between chocolate and vanilla. Not everyone will have the same preferences, but that hardly means that it wasn't worth the effort do make both. If you decide not to patent and/or produce your design, you can't blame the people who disagree with your claims about Browning's design flaws, you can only blame yourself. If you quit before trying, you've done nothing.

I'd be interested in a superior handgun, and I assume that the majority of consumers would also be interested in purchasing a product-improved version. You won't be able to find out the answer without some risk. Do you feel lucky, punk?;)

George
 
Handy, if it is so simple and cheap, it won't cost more than a few thousand dollars to have your parts made, so you can test the thing. Speaking from experience, the drawing is the easy part.

If you want, You can send me a non disclosure agreement that I will sign, then I will go over your drawing and tell you what I think, and offer constructive criticism. If it is as kick butt as you say it is, I will help you sell it to my company.

Owen Cramer
FN Manufacturing, Inc.
Columbia, SC 29223
 
If you want, You can send me a non disclosure agreement that I will sign, then I will go over your drawing and tell you what I think, and offer constructive criticism. If it is as kick butt as you say it is, I will help you sell it to my company.
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I'd take him up on that offer, Handy. I'll even chip in ten bucks for start-up costs. :cool:
 
I like sighting the P9S because it dispenses with a gas system, is closely based on a very tough rifle, was cheap when in production and is a military gun. This is still the service pistol for Greece and was produced for more than a decade: I think more than 400 pistols were made. The Seals probably have that many in storage.
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OK Handy, time to put up or shut up. Show us some figures and a source that the US Navy still has these firearms in storage, or in use. Until I see some factual data on this, I'm not even going to believe this pistol saw use by the SEALS.

And "probably" or "I imagine" is not considered a factual source. Nor is the amount of "many" considered a reliable estimate.
 
Well "Sir", I am very used to people disagreeing with my opinion, but rarely does anyone have the gall to call me a liar.

Of the books on my shelf, references to Seal used silenced P9Ss can be found in "The Worlds's Great Small Arms" by Craig Philip on page 114 and "Heckler and Kock: Armorers of the Free World" by Gene Gangarosa on page 19.

Since you're obviously too "uninformed" to use a search engine (but smart enough to insult people you don't know):

http://www.navyseals.com/community/navyseals/weapons_p9s.cfm

http://www.hkpro.com/p9s.htm

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/1700/1710.htm

Of course, I didn't need to read that information in books because I'm a Navy helicopter pilot and have trained with and worked with Seals periodically for the last six years. The pistol has been discussed more than once. The P226 is preferred for non-suppressed use do to its larger mag, US mag release and less grit sensitive in its frame levers (NOT the slide parts, the decocking/cocking lever and muck don't get along).

The P9 and P9S were produced from 1970 to 1984 in Germany (possibly longer abroad) and have served Spec Ops teams in the US, Germany, Japan and Spain. Police forces in Germany and the US, including the Idaho Fish and Game Dept, have also used it. And, as already stated, it's the regular service pistol of Greece. It was produced in two calibers (name another pistol built for 9mm that could be scaled UP to .45ACP), two kinds of triggers and two different target models. On any given day there are 4 or 5 for sale on gunsamerica. Yet they produced only 35 a year for 14 years?

Marine Tech, please do not ever post anything in my direction again.



I would like to also thank Tamara for adding nothing to the technical side of the conversation, but quick with the put-downs. What is a moderator, anyway?
 
Handy,

I would like to also thank Tamara for adding nothing to the technical side of the conversation, but quick with the put-downs. What is a moderator, anyway?
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Is there a single other member here so sensitive to being disagreed with? :confused:

I asked a question. I'll ask it again:

Do you think that you are the only person to have noticed the advantages of the fixed-barrel auto and that all other engineers, competitors, collectors, and enthusiasts on the planet are clinging to short-recoil guns out of nostalgia for an inferior design?
 
Marine Tech, please do not ever post anything in my direction again.
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Then I would suggest you not post further on an OPEN forum. If you're not ready to be disagreed with, or to be called to provide proof of your claims, then I would suggest you look elsewhere for discourse. You'll find such questions quite common. In reference to you're statement about people searching the net, let me remind you that since you are making the claims, the onus of proof is on your shoulders, not ours.

What is a moderator, anyway?
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Somebody that can make your stay on a board quite miserable. Moderators are utilitzed to check posts for violations of the rules. They have the ability to lock threads, delete posts, and have the ear of the site Administrator whose decision to ban an individual is final.

Tamara also has a considerable reputation in the firearms community and a number of firearms forum.
 
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