bubba VS. sporter
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mustanger98
Member
I didn't see anyone try to infringe the right to speak one's mind. What I do see is several people exercising their right to speak their mind and seemingly not realizing that others also have that same right to voice a criticism.
I have a 1943 JP Saur & Sohn (factory code CE 43) K98k. It came to me from SOG wearing a cruddy looking laquer-coated wood stock with flat buttplate. The only thing I did to it was clean that laquer coating off. Anybody want to guess what I found? For one thing, I found I had a pre-1938 stock. I know this because rather than a dirtybird swastika, it has Weimar eagles. I couldn't see that through all that laquer. I also have a 1940 VZ-24 that came to me at the same time... it was in pretty rough shape. It got cleaned thoroughly and re-blued and the stock got refinished and repaired. The only change in small detail it really got is that it now has a Nazi-marked recoil lug which isn't historically impossible. These aren't going anywhere and they're not going to be hacked on.
Now, that said, if I see an old Mauser that's already been cut on, I'm liable to use the action to build myself a .308 or .30-06 or 8mm to my taste in a personalized rifle. We all have that right whether to or not. If it's between letting an abused rifle stay abused and tortured-looking and making it into something really cool, what would each of you rather see? I thought so.
I have a 1943 JP Saur & Sohn (factory code CE 43) K98k. It came to me from SOG wearing a cruddy looking laquer-coated wood stock with flat buttplate. The only thing I did to it was clean that laquer coating off. Anybody want to guess what I found? For one thing, I found I had a pre-1938 stock. I know this because rather than a dirtybird swastika, it has Weimar eagles. I couldn't see that through all that laquer. I also have a 1940 VZ-24 that came to me at the same time... it was in pretty rough shape. It got cleaned thoroughly and re-blued and the stock got refinished and repaired. The only change in small detail it really got is that it now has a Nazi-marked recoil lug which isn't historically impossible. These aren't going anywhere and they're not going to be hacked on.
Now, that said, if I see an old Mauser that's already been cut on, I'm liable to use the action to build myself a .308 or .30-06 or 8mm to my taste in a personalized rifle. We all have that right whether to or not. If it's between letting an abused rifle stay abused and tortured-looking and making it into something really cool, what would each of you rather see? I thought so.
Axman
Member
I also feel that the best original specimens should be left in said condition. On the other hand my SMLE #1 MkIII has been sported but only because it was in very well used condition. The stock/forearm had cracked in various places and the breach loader (charger attachment) had come loose and fell of because of worn dowel pins. Aside form being proffesionally drilled for a scope mount by a well respected local gunsmith, the rifle can be returned to original appearance. Should I happen to find an original stock, I'll buy the stock just to have it. As far as the drilled and tapped holes I've seen competant gunsmiths fill these where they are hardly noticible. In it's present state my Enfield is more suited to my purpose than a pristine original.
As a side note, think of the old car hobbies where a really beat up old car is taken and hacked into a hotrod. The hotrod can be built for less than an original restoration. In many cases the hotrod can fetch a higher price than an original restoration. I know this isn't neccesarily true with firearms but I do find it appalling that some guys will take a pristine original car and hack it up to build a hotrod also.
As a side note, think of the old car hobbies where a really beat up old car is taken and hacked into a hotrod. The hotrod can be built for less than an original restoration. In many cases the hotrod can fetch a higher price than an original restoration. I know this isn't neccesarily true with firearms but I do find it appalling that some guys will take a pristine original car and hack it up to build a hotrod also.
Erinyes
Member
I think it's fine to sportize an older rifle that's not aging too gracefully and give it a new lease on life. A pristine milsurp, though, should be left as is.
Interestingly enough, one of our family heirlooms is a first year, 1907 built SMLE (actually marked SH.L.E. III) with all matching numbers. The upper handguard was removed and the forearm shortened. It's also had the volley sights and magazine cutoff removed. My great grandfather used it as his woods rifle. To tell the truth, it handles really well and is very light weight. It kinda sucks that would've been very collectible would have that done to it, but it's still a handsome gun (actually, I think it looks better than an unmolested No.1 Mk.III), and I understand why a poor farmer from Texas would do that.
Interestingly enough, one of our family heirlooms is a first year, 1907 built SMLE (actually marked SH.L.E. III) with all matching numbers. The upper handguard was removed and the forearm shortened. It's also had the volley sights and magazine cutoff removed. My great grandfather used it as his woods rifle. To tell the truth, it handles really well and is very light weight. It kinda sucks that would've been very collectible would have that done to it, but it's still a handsome gun (actually, I think it looks better than an unmolested No.1 Mk.III), and I understand why a poor farmer from Texas would do that.
jerkface11
Member
I've seen people whine and complain about a "bubbatized" $100 mosin nagant. Oddly you NEVER see anyone complain about a "bubbad" M-16 or M-14. I guess tacticool isn't bubba.
Prince Yamato
Member
Oh, I complain when people paint "camo" on AR-15 receivers. Someone did that to an "M-4" in a local gun shop. "Tiger-Stripe", is what the bubba called it. The colors would've only hid you in a 70s shag pad. The rifle was still going for $550. Low for an AR, but again the receiver was painted too. Ever see an AK in camo? In all honesty, I hate camo (I'd change this attitude if I were a sniper, but I'm not). I mean, what the hell, Teddy Roosevelt and George Eastman didn't have camo guns, in they bagged huge game. But somehow, all the hunters today need camo to hunt turkey. I mean cripes, the damn animals can't even see color. You look like a stick to them!
bartsimpson123844
Member
Sorry to go OT, but can someone please tell me what this is?
....if it's an MAS36....god damn!!
....if it's an MAS36....god damn!!
Cosmoline
Member
Clipper, this is what you wrote:
Now as I indicated to you, buying a Sako or esp. a Remington made Mosin and grinding it up with pride is an extremely BONEHEADED thing to do. The prices on the few remaining intact American made M-91's in particular have been shooting through the roof. And all the Finns are inherently rare, with many ultra-rare years and variants. Why do you take such perverse glee in bragging about destroying them?
Nowhere did I advocate taking away anyone's RIGHT to mangle their own rifles. But I reserve the right to criticize such plans. Do you want me to applaud you for proudly finding not just a Mosin but a RARE AMERICAN Mosin and hacking it into a POS? Do you think it's your right to receive only praise for such bizarre and destructive schemes?
You've already declared that you think war rifles are old POS's. So why bother with them? Leave them to us weird people.
R.W.Dale
Member
It's MY mas 36 that the goons at Century arms INTL thourghly bubbatized in the process of converting to 308. It shot 2' to the left as the barrel wasn't even indexed straight and there was nothing holding the forend in place other than the front sight. So I ebayed up a shortened Santa Fe barrel still chambered for 7.5x54 mas and later added a weaver side mounted scope mount. I later (out of boredom) bedded the barrel to the forend. Now believe it or not this is the best shooting milsurp rifle I've shot yet ( I've shot em all).
The rifle also now sports a much better quality scope. (the one pictured was used to see how the rifle shot)
Cosmoline
Member
A lot of the Eddystones had fairly good work done on them. I've seen many locally. There must have been some way for civilians to buy them surplus after WWI.
Frog48
Member
I dont mind if people modify their firearms to suit their tastes... well, unless they're Uday Hussein, gold plating an AK-47. 
Here we go again...
I don't think this argument will ever die. It's like the 9mm vs. .45 debate. My grandkids will be arguing about this.
So here's my 2 cents:
If you can't afford a new rifle, but can afford to buy a milsurp and modify it to suit your needs, more power to you. I don't think it usually has anything to do with Bubba's ability to shoot an un-modified milsurp as Cosmo likes to suggest (no offense Cos, but I think you're wrong), it has to do with Bubba's preferences.
Some people like wood and iron sights, some like synthetics and scopes. Some like bent bolts, some straight.
Some people just want a project gun. There's something very personal about taking and old milsurp and making it your own.
Just call me Bubba.
I don't think this argument will ever die. It's like the 9mm vs. .45 debate. My grandkids will be arguing about this.
So here's my 2 cents:
If you can't afford a new rifle, but can afford to buy a milsurp and modify it to suit your needs, more power to you. I don't think it usually has anything to do with Bubba's ability to shoot an un-modified milsurp as Cosmo likes to suggest (no offense Cos, but I think you're wrong), it has to do with Bubba's preferences.
Some people like wood and iron sights, some like synthetics and scopes. Some like bent bolts, some straight.
Some people just want a project gun. There's something very personal about taking and old milsurp and making it your own.
Just call me Bubba.
islandphish
Member
I see the difference as do you want to shoot it or collect it? Are these tools or wall-hangers? Sure, if you are comparing everything by price then it makes little sense to modify a classic mil-surp. But guys, there really are plenty of them out there in the museums and private collections, there is no real loss of history when you take a mil-surp, get an idea and make it happen.
So speak cattily about those of us who enjoy fabrication and modification. We'll take our guns, finished with the sweat of our brows, and enjoy the heck out of them. Probably the same amount as the collectors do when they pull out the oldies.
In short, why does it matter to anybody so much what somebody else does to their stuff?
And finally, I'll be taking my 50$ Bubba-ized 1903A3 out this year for deer. Like I have for the last ten years. She's been cut down, re-stocked, scope safety, drilled and tapped, and the bolt bent. Wears a Sightron SII and shoots straighter than me. Too bad the stock has tons of obvious wear and the bluing is rubbed clean off in places. Don't matter much to me because it feels like a store bought gun and shoots with the reliability of a mil-surp. Hope that nobody gets bent out of shape about that.
So speak cattily about those of us who enjoy fabrication and modification. We'll take our guns, finished with the sweat of our brows, and enjoy the heck out of them. Probably the same amount as the collectors do when they pull out the oldies.
In short, why does it matter to anybody so much what somebody else does to their stuff?
And finally, I'll be taking my 50$ Bubba-ized 1903A3 out this year for deer. Like I have for the last ten years. She's been cut down, re-stocked, scope safety, drilled and tapped, and the bolt bent. Wears a Sightron SII and shoots straighter than me. Too bad the stock has tons of obvious wear and the bluing is rubbed clean off in places. Don't matter much to me because it feels like a store bought gun and shoots with the reliability of a mil-surp. Hope that nobody gets bent out of shape about that.
Limeyfellow
Member
I am glad my Arisaki still has the mum on, but since its a war trophy back from Iwo Jima it should do.
mustanger98
Member
I think part of the problem here is some people see any modification at all as "bubbafication". I've probably told it before, but an older gentleman I know from the gun club has a beautifully sporterized Remington '03A3 with a 8-44 2-groove barrel. Part of the sporterization was that he cut back and refinished a C-stock and installed a rubber recoil pad. Another thing was that he changed out the sights for a globe front and Williams FP/TK rear. This is his match rifle. Even though he retained the military two-stage trigger, it handles beautifully and does its job very well. I know because I've not only handled this rifle, but I've also shot against the man and the rifle. I wouldn't call him "Bubba" nor would I call his rifle a "bubbafication". This isn't nearly the only example of a good old fighting rifle being refitted in a beautiful way and used in a much happier pursuit.
That said, I have seen plenty I wouldn't do done to rifles of several types- military surplus and sporter alike.
Had my Winchester '94 (1971 manufacture) been a pre-64, I'm sure the snobs would've thrown their heads back and howled before promptly sharpening their knives at the first mention of my changing the rear sight for a Lyman #2. I really don't give a flip as it's my rifle, its accuracy is greatly enhanced, and it isn't for sale.
That said, I have seen plenty I wouldn't do done to rifles of several types- military surplus and sporter alike.
Had my Winchester '94 (1971 manufacture) been a pre-64, I'm sure the snobs would've thrown their heads back and howled before promptly sharpening their knives at the first mention of my changing the rear sight for a Lyman #2. I really don't give a flip as it's my rifle, its accuracy is greatly enhanced, and it isn't for sale.
Just_a_dude_with_a_gun
Member
Maybe I haven't been around many home gun smith diasters, but I believe a bubba is considered anything that when finished, doesn't work or doesn't look like it will work, whether it does or not. lol
Cosmoline
Member
Who's a collector? I advocate taking the time to learn how to USE these old war horses on their own terms, instead of beating them mindlessly into some hybrid remchester. I've put tens of thousands of rounds through military rifles. Heck, I even like to fix the bayonet and stick spruce trees with them, then bash the trees with the buttplate. These rifles were intended to be used and abused, and all you do by hacking their bolts off, replacing their iron sights with cheap scopes, and their hardwood stocks with plastic ones is make them into cheap garbage. You take a tough tool of wood and steel and turn it into a plastic and glass abomination that would fall apart in your hands if smacked into something hard.
I have never told anyone to make them into wall hangers. I simply advise you to TAKE THE TIME and OPEN YOUR MIND. Learn about them. Learn how to use them on their terms. Understand why they were made as they were. Then you will appreciate them more and come to respect the men who carried them.
To me, a Bubba is someone who ASSUMES without any real knowledge that old war rifles are inferior or defective because they don't have a monte carlo stock, a scope with no irons, and a bent bolt. It's a combination of ignorance and arrogance that represents the worst of the American rifle shooter.
mustanger98
Member
IMO, this is a really important point. I say this from the point of view of an amatuer student of history. I say this as the owner of a Fazakerly No.4Mk2 Enfield w/ micrometer sight, a 1943 JP Saur K98k, and a 1940 VZ-24. These rifles all shoot differently. I have a sort of story on each of these rifles...
The Enfield... when I unwrapped it at the receiving/transferring FFL, it was a greasy oil-soaked mess. The shop-owner's wife who was working the counter that day... she thought I'd lost my mind buying something like that. Another customer looked bewildered and said "I wouldn't know what to do with something like that". But, I took it home and disassembled it and over the next month, I cleaned up the internals and refinished the stock. Although it was a fighting rifle, it turned out to be a beautiful piece. I took it to the range, flipped up the micrometer set on 200yds, and fired it... that clay pigeon on the 100yd berm... I watched through the aperture as that clay bird exploded. It was a beautiful sight.
The K98k and VZ-24 came to me from SOG, bought both at once, four years ago. I cleaned up the wood, but further work wasn't required so much as a general cleaning. When I fired it with Turkish ammo, I wondered why it hit high at 100yds. Then, one of my shooting buddies relayed what an old Austrian gentleman told him...
100yds- aim for the belt buckle and hit COM
200yds- aim for the belt buckle and hit COM
300yds- aim for COM and hit COM
400yds- aim for the head and hit COM
Even though the tangent sight was graduated for 100m and on out, the sights were calibrated so that with German-issue ammo, the average German soldier of the WW2 era could know where to aim for the different distances without having to worry with the sight setting. Now, my study of history includes some info on the 1st Special Forces (aka "The Devil's Brigade)... they trained not only with the US M1 Garand, but also with German weapons so if they ran out of ammo or otherwise had to use German weapons, they knew how to hit with them.
The VZ-24... as I said, I aquired it at the same time as the K98k. I not only had to do some stock refinishing, but I also had to de-rust and re-blue. I emmediately found that the sights are graduated differently to the K98k. The VZ-24's sight is graduated from 300m on out. I also found that the VZ-24's sights are a finer picture than the K98k's so I started to wonder how the soldier saw his sights in a hurry in battle.
While I won't consider sporterizing these rifles, if I run across a real deal on one of Bubba's victims and the action is still intact, I won't hesitate to build a sporter according to me. I've seen a good many rifles in a state where sporterizing would be on a par with rescue.
mrmeval
Member
It's a bubba
It could be done by German craftsmen and it's still a bubba, deal with it.
It could be done by German craftsmen and it's still a bubba, deal with it.
mustanger98
Member
Not every rifle that left the Mauser plant at Oberndorf left in military configuration. Mauser advertised big game rifles for use in Africa as well. Those big game rifles were built on the same Model 98 large-ring receiver as the K98k's were built on. Deal with that.
I'll also add that it seems to me building a good solid big game rifle is simply carrying on the commercial idea the Mauser gunsmiths had advertised before the war.
This idea that any change is bad reminds me of a thread on another board several years ago. I started it by describing a rifle I have had in mind to build... Mauser action, .308 barrel, and several features not commonly combined with that platform such as the front sight and flash hider of an M-14 combined with the appropriate rear sight for the receiver, plainly finished stock, etc. One guy posted saying "if it was a good idea, Springfield would've built it that way". While that guy was so closed-minded he couldn't see the viability of it, other guys who shoot all kinds of rifles seemed to think there were good ideas there. Some of those guys are among my online buddies now and they've been building or otherwise working with rifles since before I was born.
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