bubba VS. sporter

[gezzer]

Folks who call Sporterized milsurp’s bubbaized IMHO are the Guys who show up Sundays on the range with a cheap milsurp and bayonet, dressed in 1950's fatigues, can't hit the target frames, pull their Kbar and goose butterflies. BUBBA ized is an insult by SNOBS.

I remember SMELE’S and Jap’s selling real cheap buy a case of ammo and get 5 rifles free. Both are so freaking ugly the best thing to do to them is bury them in a manure pile.

 

[Cosmoline]

Both are so freaking ugly the best thing to do to them is bury them in a manure pile.

Speaking of narrow minded... I wonder if you realize how much money you could have made by grabbing up some of those, esp. the Arisakas.

It could be done by German craftsmen and it's still a bubba, deal with it.

I disagree. I've seen many sporterized rifles done by real gunsmiths who knew what they were doing that are true works of art. Bubba is another matter. He reads some article about do-it-yourself sporterization in Guns n' Ammo and decides he can pull it off with basic shop tools. The result, as pointed out above, often doesn't even function and gets tossed in the garbage bin. It's still possible for a good gunsmith to construct a fine sporter out of a surplus rifle, but it isn't done very often for a wide range of reasons. For one thing, excellent Mauser style actions are easily available and are already in the white and ready for customization. These can be combined with any of an array of thousands of barrels, without having to worry about the tricky business of unscrewing old barrels that have been in place for ages or fitting barrels to odd military threads. Plus, stock blanks are available that will serve better than an old musket style military stock for a custom rifle. There's just no reason for a good smith to mess with the surplus rifles anymore. On top of this, the good smiths know perfectly well that hacking up vintage rifles is at best misguided and at worst can destroy a valuable and historic firearm.

But turn the clock back to the period between the 1880's and 1930's and the situation changes. It wasn't nearly as easy to get quality bolt action components, and for a time there simply were no commercially available rifles for hunters who wanted to use one of the new high velocity smokeless military rounds. So the finest smiths turned 1888 Commission Mausers, Enfields and Mannlichers into works of art for wealthy customers. These rifles still command a very high price on the market, and with good reason. I've held some of them, and you can tell instantly you ain't dealing with no bubba rifle. The balance and workmanship are perfect, from the checkering on the stock to the throw of the bolt. Plus, the same factories that made the military rifles would make commercial rifles for hunting. These include the legendary commercial Mausers and Mannlicher-Schoenauers. These rifles are in a class by themselves. You will never find anything on par coming out of some bubba's garage.

 

[Clipper]

Well, 'Bubba' here is a journeyman Toolmaker/Machinist, and the reason I'll have the tooling in my garage is that I'm retiring and will no longer have access to my employer's equipment. I deal with industrial machine tool and CNC technology every day, and am used to working tolerances to the ten-thousandth of an inch. The average gunsmith doesn't get close to the tolerances I deal with daily...In other words, I ain't a hacksaw & snag grind artist. I want a foul weather rifle, and I want to start doing some gunsmithing, and need an inexpensive project or two before I begin working on my more expensive pieces. I like the Mosin round and accuracy (when it's done right), and I want a weatherproof 'glass stock. I may scope it. I'll certainly drill it for the bases I want to make, but I might just go with peeps for normal use. I find your degree of agitation and narrow-mindedness amusing, Cosmo, and it amuses me when you become so exercised about me or anyone else utilizing our property in a way that you don't like.

 

[mrmeval]

No, if it started as a military rifle and is modified it's a bubba. It could be encrusted with diamonds and gold and it's still a bubba.

I saw a Luger at the gun show someone had hacked up and carved on and gold plated to mimic a baby luger. They are real proud of it and the price reflects that. Very good workmanship. Still a bubba.

You can hack on them all you want, it just makes all the ones that have not been hacked on more valuable. Right now I have a nice deer gun in .30-06 made from an M1917 Eddystone, it's worth about 200 dollars (gunsamerica price 500), as an M1917 it would be worth 700 or so. Nice gun, beautiful stock and bluing, accurate and handles very well, it's a very nice bubba.

Remington made the Model 30 from left over WWII parts and made a fantastic rifle which is now worth far more than the M1917. It's not a bubba.

Mauser made and makes commercial mausers that are exceptional and again not bubbas since they started out as commercial mausers.

If you've not heard someone bubba'd a WWII tank to fire paintballs. Pretty cool actually but...still a bubba.

 

[armoredman]

Ok, now THAT I want to see. Remember when Interordance offerred restored T-34s for $50,000? Seems somebody may have bought one, because the price jumped to $100,000, and then they disappeared...

 

[B yond]

You've got to be kidding!

TAKE THE TIME and OPEN YOUR MIND.

Perhaps if the person who said this would take his own advice he would see that a well-done bubba with a scope can often hit targets he can't even see with his iron sights, and Bubba usually wants to use his gun for something more than bayoneting trees and beating them with buttplates.

I advocate taking the time to learn how to USE these old war horses on their own terms...I even like to fix the bayonet and stick spruce trees with them, then bash the trees with the buttplate.

Cosmoline, I can tell from your other posts in other threads that you know a lot about these rifles, and I respect that, but come on! This is getting downright silly. :banghead:

Clipper, as a fellow machinist I encourage you to make whatever modifications you want to your rifle. I'm sure you'll do it well. Just promise me you'll post the pics when you're done.

And don't worry about what a few gun snobs think, machinists make guns, they just play with them.

 

[Clipper]

Thanks B yond...

...To paraphrase Boyd Coddington, "Anyone can restore a gun, but it takes a real man to cut one up..."

 

[SuperNaut]

Weren't there sport versions of p14's sold to the public? Would those be considered bubba'd? Bubba'd by the factory?

 

[dfaugh]

Some how I KNEW this would devolve into a firefight....

First, there's collectibles, and then there's COLLECTIBLES...Some of these guns were made in the many MILLIONS, which means they aren't worth all that much, and never will be.

I've "sporterized" a Turk Mauser (and gotten compliments on the workmanship) and I'm currently doing a VZ-24---which had a stock that was firewood, and had all of the markings ground off. Neither had any real collector value.

On the other hand, I'm restoring an WWI SMLE, that "Bubba" got ahold of, and, luckily, he only chopped the stock, all the metal is original, matching numbers.

So this cuts both ways. I don't see the problem with taking a "common" milsurp, and making what you want or need out of it, but its probably not a good idea to take a real rarity and modify it permanently.
Personally, I don't see a problem with taking a relatively common gun, and making it intosomething you can really use. To each their own.

 

[Cosmoline]

Perhaps if the person who said this would take his own advice he would see that a well-done bubba with a scope can often hit targets he can't even see with his iron sights, and Bubba usually wants to use his gun for something more than bayoneting trees and beating them with buttplates.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You ASSUME that a scope allows you to hit things you could never hit with irons. Like most American rifle shooters these days, you have no respect for irons and you don't understand how to use an iron sight system. Hayha killed over 500 Soviets with iron sighted war rifles. Millions of game animals were taken with iron sights. Whole species were taken to the brink of extinction with iron sights. I've bullseyed my share, and will continue to do so--WITH IRONS. But you think Bubba needs to fix a high powered scope to the same rifles or they will be totally useless. :banghead: On top of which, there are good mounts available that won't destroy the rifle. You don't have to start drilling into case hardened receivers like a fool.

And Clipper, I'm still waiting to see you hack up a US made Mosin as you proudly bragged you would. Oh wait, here's one you could have used. A POS Westinghouse. Just a garbage rifle. Look at the dirt cheap price it went for.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=56687840

If you have $1,181 to put down on a rifle for a project gun, I'm sure as hell not the arrogant snob here. You bragged how you'd hacked such a rifle up many years ago. Still feel good about that choice?

...Some of these guns were made in the many MILLIONS, which means they aren't worth all that much, and never will be.

But you don't know what you don't know. And none of us can say what's going to be worth money. Garands and Springfield '03's were made in the millions and used to be sold for next to nothing, but these days only a complete moron would take an intact example of either into the shop for some hack and slash action. Indeed, folks try hard to RESTORE them from damage that was done by bubba. Even rifles as common as M-44's or M-91/30's can be worth more than you think. That M-44 may be worth no more than a C note, or it may have an incredibly rare [SA] stamp on it, or be from a rare year. Or even look at the Polish M-44's that used to go for a hundred a head just a few years back. Now they're running three times that price. That M-91/30 that looks like hell may be a rare Vietnam bringback. You just don't know what you don't know.

Sadly, the folks who are most likely to hack a rifle are the least likely to understand what they have in hand. I've seen hundreds of trashed rifles that prove this beyond any doubt.

 

[B yond]

and the battle rages on...

You ASSUME that a scope allows you to hit things you could never hit with irons.

Actually Cosmoline, I said a scope allows me to hit targets you can't SEE with your irons. If anyone's assuming things here it's you, assuming i don't know how to use iron sights.

I CAN use iron sights, but I'm smart enough to know that if I can't SEE the bullseye, I'm probably not gonnna hit it.

And I never said these rifles were useless without modification. Read carefully before you start ASSUMING things like that.

there are good mounts available that won't destroy the rifle. You don't have to start drilling into case hardened receivers like a fool.

There sure are, but I couldn't afford a good one. I could afford a drill bit. I may be a fool, but I'm a fool with a rifle that can hit targets you can't see with your irons, as I said before.

 

[B yond]

...and on...

you have no respect for irons and you don't understand how to use an iron sight system. Hayha killed over 500 Soviets with iron sighted war rifles. Millions of game animals were taken with iron sights.

By your logic, since you don't like scoped and sporterized milsurps, you MUST have no respect for scopes and not know how to use them. Lots of people and animals have been killed with scoped guns, too.

I have plenty of respect for iron sights, but I wanted a scope on MY MN.

P.S. How many trees did Hayha bayonet?

 

[Gord]

I guess our snipers in Iraq are all morons who don't know how to use irons. Shame on them for relying on scopes and synthetic stocks instead of taking the time to learn how to dispatch insurgents with an iron-sighted 1903. If Salmo Hayha can do it, anyone can! It's not like he was a freakishly good sniper with god-given talent or anything, he just knew how to appreciate the gun!

Sorry, but the "if you want a scope or a cheek rest on your milsurp YOU ARE AN IDIOT AND DON'T KNOW HOW TO SHOOT" argument holds absolutely no water. I have three Mosins, I'm perfectly adept at shooting bottlecaps at 200yds with them, but maybe I'd like to add a scope (with a receiver mount as the rear-sight replacement "scout mounts" look goofy as hell to me) so I can kill bottlecaps at even longer ranges. Excuse the heck out of me for also thinking that the Mosin stock isn't the most ergonomic example of a shooting platform - those ATI stocks look pretty comfy with the recoil pad, the grip (as opposed to the straight-stocked on that makes my wrist hurt after several hundred rounds) and the cheek rest, which might help bring me up to eye level with the scope.

If you're going to continue to tell people that they don't know how to use iron sights, perhaps you should put your money where your mouth is and go win a couple Camp Perry shoots with a Mosin as an example of what anyone can do if they'll just take the time to learn how to use an old battle rifle instead of ruining it by modifying it to efficiently meet their needs.

Of course, Hack-Up-a-Finn-or-a-Remington guy should give some serious thought to choosing one of the bazillion Soviet Mosins to meet his angle grinder, but then again, his money, his choice.

There's a big difference between a backwoods DEHR HUNTAH getting ahold of an M39 and taking a hacksaw to it to make it "look better", and someone who knows what they're doing taking an unremarkable M44 or 91/30 and adding a scope for (convenient) longer-range shooting, or swapping out the stock for something that feels better, or modifying the original if they don't feel like laying down $70 for an ATI stock, or doing whatever they want with their property so that it better suits them and what they want to do with it.

In criticizing others for "bubba-ing" milsurps we're vicariously trying to enjoy the fine old warhorses (well, pre-hacksaw) that they own, and there's nothin' wrong with that - but the bottom line is that however much we might wish to the contrary, no museum in the world would be willing to house all 300,000 of those "rare" year Mosins; we're never going to be able to enjoy them all collectively, so the best one can do is buy as many as he or she wants, enjoy those, and let others do with theirs as they wish.

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm smart enough to know that if I can't SEE the bullseye, I'm probably not gonnna hit it.

You don't have to be able to see the bullseye clearly to hit the bullseye. You use irons and the target together to form a series of reference points and line yourself up with the center. If you had to see the bullseye to hit it, iron sighted rifles would never be able to make consistent bullseyes beyond 75 yards or so. And there's several centuries of competition shooting that disprove that notion.

I may be a fool, but I'm a fool with a rifle that can hit targets you can't see with your irons, as I said before.

Do you understand why it's foolish to try to drill holes and sink bolts into case hardened steel receivers? It's yet another in the long, long list of reasons to buy a Savage or Ruger 77 and play around with it instead.

 

[B yond]

...and on

Cosmoline,

You don't have to be able to see the bullseye clearly to hit the bullseye.

I didn't say clearly, I said at all. If I can't see it, hitting it is just lucky. If you can hit a bullseye you cannot see, then I humbly bow my head to your vastly superior wushu.

Do you understand why it's foolish to try to drill holes and sink bolts into case hardened steel receivers?

No I don't understand. The holes I drilled and tapped are holding up just fine. The gun hasn't exploded, it still shoots straight, and brimstone has not rained down upon me, not even a hint of rust. Maybe I missed something. I am after all just a lowly machinist, surely I couldn't understand the infinite complexities of hole-drilling as well as someone of your caliber of expertise.

Anyway Cosmo, I'm done arguing with you. I'm not going to change your opinion of sporterized milsurps no matter what I say. :banghead: Besides, you've consistently misread or misinterpreted almost every point I've tried to make. I've found a much more productive use of my spare time. I'll be in the backyard bayonetting and butt-stroking a tree.

 

[Cosmoline]

If you can hit a bullseye you cannot see, then I humbly bow my head to your vastly superior wushu.

I don't know many humans who can actually see the ten ring clearly beyond 75 yards, or at all beyond a 100. But that doesn't stop them from nailing the thing in competition. Wushu has nothing to do with it--you simply have to learn how to use iron sights.

I'm glad you're done arguing with me, but I'd be happier if you put down the damn hack saw.

 

[s&w 24]

lets get back to the point here! Milsurps are great I love em to death, but a pre 1970 sporter rifle on a military action produced with SKILLED hands is a fine thing to behold. Just take a look at a sedgley 1903 or a P.O. Ackley 98 mauser, or a holland and holland SMLE sporter. THESE ARE NOT BUBBU's !

Making a low cost military gun into a nice target or hunting rig is not creating a bubba by defalt. When there is more alcohol than gunpowder involved in the "creation" of the artical it's a bubba. If the highest tech tool used in the prosess is a hollow ground screwdriver and a hacksaw its a bubba.

I only want people to use clear language when discussing firearms and not insult the creators of fine weapons. Is this too much to ask? For people to use accurate terms and be polite?

 

[Axman]

I would have been happy to keep the MC stock off my Enfield had the original stock been a bit safer, or a suitable original was available at the time I was needing one. My dad bought the rifle originally for a hunting rig and I find the MC stock to be lighter and easier to carry than the old wood. So whether it's a bubbaized gun to you, not to me. It's a perfectly functioning firearm that has been improved over the well worn condition it was in. If I purchase a low priced Mosin that is in rough shape, I might do the same.

 

[wayne in boca]

I am fortunate enough to own the most beautiful rifle I have ever seen.It is said to be the work of a German gunsmith immediately after WWII,and appears to be a labour of love.The man must have been handed a blank check.It started out as a 1903A4 Remington sniper,made in 1943.It has been rebarreled and restocked,with the most lovely hand-carved stock (with a schnabel forend)it is possible to imagine.A very old-world European stag scene graces the right side of the stock,while the left side has a cheekpiece that rivals the finest sculpture.The hand checkering is exquisite.The bolt is jewelled and much of the metal is engraved by a master.When I purchased it,it wore a Leupold Vari-X III 2.5 X10 scope.I have added a Timney trigger and a speedlock spring to accelerate lock time.It is my pride and joy,but would be worth twice what it is if it were still in original condition.I could restore it,but it would be like covering the Mona Lisa with paint stripper to restore the canvas to original condition.Some modifications are Bubba jobs,some are not.

 

[LAK]

I'd know I'd be awfully ashamed to own just one each of the pre- and postwar "bubba" rifles turned out by John Rigby, Cogswell & Harrison, Griffin & Howe, Westley Richards, etc ... etc .......... etc.

-----------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[islandphish]

hey Wayne in Boca,

I'm considering adding to the ruining of my 1903 CUSTOM, by replacing th crappy ORIGINAL trigger with a Timney. How is that one treating you?

Cosmoline,

One minute you are bashing trees with your milsurps, the next you are on a rampage about how much this or that would be worth if only someone hadn't enjoyed it.

At 400 yards your iron sights will generally not work as well for people as a scope. if you argue that then you are just blowing smoke.

Why can't you just let people enjoy their stuff and their supposed ignorance?

 

[Cosmoline]

If you'd take the time to notice, intact war rifles have steel buttplates. They're designed to be bashed into things. Of course, those are among the first thing bubbas remove. My point was, these rifles are far stronger and better if you leave them intact than if you start mangling them.

If you're doing a lot of hunting beyond 400 yards, of course a scope will be very helpful. But then again if you're doing that kind of hunting you need a proper varmint rifle anyway.

Why can't you just let people enjoy their stuff and their supposed ignorance?

Because I've seen too much history torn apart by idiots. They're little better than the antis who make "art" out of destroyed rifles.

 

[rbernie]

Because I've seen too much history torn apart by idiots. They're little better than the antis who make "art" out of destroyed rifles.

Your attitude sounds no better than the leftists who want to presume to tell me what's acceptable usage for the property that I own. Your property = your values. My property = my values. It should be frighteningly simple.

"I know better. I've seen too many idiots do the wrong thing (according to my enlightened value structure)."

Boy, does *THAT* sound like a familiar refrain. <sigh>

 

[Lonestar.45]

I'm of the opinion a man can do what he wants to his own property, and shouldn't worry about what others think.

That said, I have to ask, WHY would you? In this day and age of modern technology, modern metals, tight tolerances, etc, why would one want to bubba an old milsurp? You can buy a nice factory bolt action with a warranty, that should be 1 MOA accurate out of the box with factory ammo, for $300 or less. Not to mention the millions of already bubba'd rifles already on the market. It makes no sense to take a pristine original and hack it up.

But, as someone earlier said, bubba is as bubba does. I'll stand up for bubba's right to do what he wants with his property all day long, just so long as bubba doesn't ask me to agree he's doing a smart thing.

I've seen some $15 grand sporterized '03's and Mausers, and for those of you who think they are in the same thing as a bubba job, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Ash]

Boy, some folks need to get their heads out of the clouds and come down to reality.

In reality, the VAST MAJORITY of sporterizing reduces the value of the firearm by a wide margin. The pawn shops are full of these rifles collecting dust. For every one priceless object of beauty that some here think all sporters become, there are 50 pieces of junk. Worse, the amount of money spent "sporterizing" could be saved and spent on a rifle intended to mount a scope with a fully adjustable trigger. You want a scoped rifle? Buy a Savage or Remington. That is what they are made for. A milsurp is a miserable choice for mounting a scope, given the amount of work it requires. And sporters by a very wide margin are worth less than the sum of their parts. A sporterized Mosin, for example, is not going to bring the $250 it cost to sporterize it. Neither will an Arisaka, Turkish Mauser, M95 Mannlicher, or any other sporter. Ditto for Springfields or Enfields.

Now, to those referring to the Remington hunting rifles based on the Enfield action, those were made to be hunting rifles pure and simple. They were not military rifles from the trenches of Europe cut down into sporters. The fact, and yes, a very simple fact, remains that what ever a man wants to do with a milsurp he can, even if by doing so he ruins its value. Bubba does not enhance the value of anything, nor does 90% of any of the sporterizing. Heck, even the Kimber sporterized Swedish Mausers tend to bring in less than the original M96's.

Ash