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Budget Rifle Opinions Wanted.

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JC-Denton said:
Anyone know how the stock forward grip is, I've heard it heats up to intolerable levels under even moderate rate of fire.

Thanks, I'd love to hear more suggestions and experiences!
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If you're asking about a Saiga I haven't noticed the fore grip heating to 'intolerable' levels under moderate rate of fire. AK or AR for that matter. The grip screw on the Saiga does tend to loosen a bit but that's an easy fix.

Were it not for the self imposed caliber limitation an AR would be a better choice IMO. Not for nothing but 6mm ammo or better purchased on line or or not is an expensive endeavor regardless of budget.

There is a budget here somewhere?
 
what are you're other set-ups? what other rifles do you have significant trigger time on.

why not just save up, or sell something else that doesn't fit the bill and buy the PWS?
 
Interesting, I'd love a link to the mods you made to make the PTR more lefty friendly!
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On the selector, there's no real link. I had a spare AR ambi safety lying around so I decided where I wanted the lever, milled a slot in the PTR's selector lever, and then drilled and tapped the selector axle to bolt the AR right side lever to the HK selector. It also let me pick which angles I wanted for "safe" and "fire". It's slightly less of a reach now.

HK and a couple other companies make drop in ambi safeties, ranging from ~$70, to ~$200 if one wanted to go that route. RobertRTG is my go to guy for roller lock parts.

Installing the Original Paddle mag release is a little more complicated, you'll need to drill a carefully located blind hole, remove most of the semi auto shelf from the back of the magwell install the release and then weld the hole up. All to get a stock G3 mag release. (Thanks, ATF) Here's a link to a thread discussing it, and the mag release install starts on page 4 of the .doc linked in post #2.

http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Forum/showthread.php?15710-HK-Paddle-Mag-Install&highlight=paddle
 
Home defense and budget-

AK or similar in same caliber. The recommendations for the Czech semi above look right. You want to be able to shoot a lot of rounds and be reasonably sure nobody will be coming into the house.

Other than that- a semi auto shotgun.
 
The reason I said that is because you want a piston gun and a bigger caliber. A piston is a needless add on that adds weight, complication and expense with no benefit. Also it AR is superior to the AK at any range for most defense purposes, but for those exceptions the 6.8 is readily available. Maybe you really want a FAL or CETME. In my experience the Saiga is far superior to an SKS and much more accurate than a regular AK. I have owned a shot lots of them. For your budget in my opinion a AR is the best buy but it what you want that counts.
 
I'm not sure why you're handicapping yourself from the best close range self defense calibers... your criteria ensure that you won't have anything that will fragment in tissue, and also that it will have a strong potential for over-penetration of hard barriers (check out the Wall of Truth)... but it sounds like an AK or VZ-2008 would satisfy your desires best. Since you already state that you don't care about having the most reliable operating system for a particular rifle, I won't bore you with the benefits of chrome lined barrels or any of that... just buy the cheapest com bloc 7.62x39 you can find and call it good. You say 300 yd. accurate... I'm not sure how accurate you want at this distance, but just about any com bloc rifle is going to be capable of holding under man-sized groups at that distance. That $400 folding stock VZ looks good since you say you want it compact... it comes with mags and everything.
 
Thanks for the info on the ptr! I'll be looking at that closely now. Everyone can feel free to keep giving suggestions, but I pretty much narrowed it to an AR build, a g3 clone, or a decent Ak style.

Many of the questions people are asking have been answered in my prior replies, please refer to these if you are curious.
 
I still lean to the VZ2008. They are a Czech VZ58 clone and made from VZ58 parts kits.(semi FCG, US barrel ((to be 16 inches)) are the only difference.) They differ from an AK in that they use a short stroke piston and a tilting lock in the bolt. They are striker fired instead of a hammer. The receiver is forged steel instead of stamped and still weighs a pound less. The lockup is a kind of a mix of SKS (tilting) and Beretta (two locking lugs like a M9/92F pistol.) They only share caliber with an AK47 (7.62x39) yet tend to be more accurate and have a "closed" receiver when in battery. That is, when the safety is down on an AK there is a big slot for debris to get into. The VZ is closed off like an AR and anything bigger than dust cannot get inside. When the bolt is locked back they have an open breach like an SKS and can be cleared of jams and un-ejected cases very easily, not that I have ever had to. Mags can be topped off by locking the bolt back and shoving rounds in like a bolt-action rifle. They also can use SKS stripper clips from the locked bolt position.

Century did have some troubles with the semi-only FCG early on and google searches will refer to "trigger gremlin" however, Century has since figured it out and if you ignore the older reviews and instead focus only on ones in the last two years you will find that to be a non-issue.

Accessories are not as common as for the AK/AR but they are out there. M4 style stock tubes so you can use any AR stock on the market, updated grips, quad rail hand guards, scope/red-dot mounting are all out there. The mags are aluminum like an AR and weigh less than AK mags and they will not rust. They run approx $15 each but the above kit comes with 5 30-round mags, sling, cleaning kit, oil bottle, bayonet, 4 mag pouch, so that meets most people's needs.

As for lefty's, the charging handle is on the right but the rifle does have "last round lock-back" unlike an AK and my buddy who shoots lefty has an easier time releasing the bolt after mag change than I do. there are ambi safeties, ambi mag releases, ambi bolt locks available that are drop-in additions.

With less than a million ever made, you are sure to be the only kid on your block with one.
 
The stuff you say you want describes the SKS perfectly. You can make one work with detachable mags but the truth is there are big advantages to stripper clips. First off you can carry a LOT more ammo because you aren't carrying the weight of the extra mags. You are only carrying the weight of very light stripper clips. You can load ammo from a stripper clip very fast with minimal practice. With a commonly available chest pouch you can carry 200 rounds plus the 10 in the rifle. Try carrying 200 rounds in mags for any rifle. It nearly doubles the weight to carry those mags.

A decent SKS is likely the most reliable rifle you will ever see. That includes AK's too BTW. My SKS's have been far more reliable than my AK ever was. And lots of AR's are not reliable compared to an SKS. I know you said you didn't want to go that way anyway.

I converted my only current SKS on the day I bought it back in 1992. It has worked almost 100% of the time since then and I have never had one single problem that was magazine related. But they are slow to load compared to other mags. Still if you need to fire more than 30 rounds you need help more than you need to load another mag quickly. I've thought hard about going back to the original setup for my Norinco. I had a Yugo until recently. I traded it for a graduation present for my daughter. I should have given her the SKS come to think of it. :) The Yugo worked fine with stripper clips. It's not nearly as hard as all that to learn to use them.
 
I have a Mini-30 tactical in a scabbard in my truck. Irons only which are extremely effective out to 200 yards with little holdover at 200. I don't envision the need to range further than that with this system, so no optic and I have not fired it past 200. It's extremely light and compact with a 16" barrel and with a 20 rd magazine offers more than enough firepower.

I have AK's and AR's as well, but this one fits my needs better as a hunting rifle rather than a tactical type rifle. It's been used as a pest/vermin control rifle on my property as well as a deer rifle for quick unplanned hunts during season.

The Ruger Ranch Rifles may not be everyone's cup of tea, but they are well made and light weight as well as rugged and reliable which is enough for my needs.
 
JC-Denton said:
Many of the questions people are asking have been answered in my prior replies, please refer to these if you are curious.
Click to expand...

I am sorry if I missed it but I cannot find where you stated your reasons for 6mm +

223 and 7.62x39 are budget calibers to go along with your budget rifle. Stray from that and your costs of practice ammo start climbing. If you don't practice then I guarantee that 300 yard shot will be difficult, if not imposssible.
 
Not for nothing but 6mm ammo or better purchased on line or or not is an expensive endeavor regardless of budget.
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7.62 x 39 is about as cheap as it comes. It's also minute of man accurate to about 300 yards.

BTW I've considered some of the other 7.62 x 39 com-bloc rifles but I keep coming back to the proven reliability of the SKS. You'll find lots of people that will back up that POV.
 
^^^ I agree and that's a huge plus for the 7.62 x39. Still, I was just trying to reconcile the 6 mm requirement with the 'budget' premis of the title of the thread. I can buy it cheaper than any other CF ammo that I use.
 
well JC there are SKSs that take AK mags, and i seen in my area bullpup SKSs that take detachable duckbill mags with in your budget, there is also the Krink/Draco AK pistols that can be had with in your budget, however they're pistols, but very compact and IMHO ideal for HD purposes in the way that of being very compact, cheap ammo and high cap, but aren't really suitable for 50-100+ yard ranges. also the VZ58/2008 are a good option, but the only draw back about them is proprietary mags, not a whole lot of aftermarket options for them and although i seen cheap prices for the VZ mags recently, but that may not last. but IMHO go the AK or variant route.
 
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Plenty of weapons in the range. In fact to many to mention.

Savage has a package deal that might interest you as do others.
 
Grab something solid, and hang tight. I'm about to speak heresy.

If you are assailed, and produce a firearm, the best statistic I can find is that your assailant will flee 93% of the time. So only 7% of the time does it even matter what cartridge your firearm uses.

A 5.56 loaded with Barnes TTSX 62 grain bullets is more than adequate for the other 7%, and will also serve well enough for many sporting purposes.

Yes, something in a larger cartridge does have its advantages. A Browning BLR in 7mm-08 has a very respectable rate of fire, is large enough and accurate enough to engage big game targets at 400 yards or more, and is within your budget. It's light, and recoil is moderate.

Get something you'll routinely take to the range and enjoy. Enjoy it often. Practice, practice, and then practice some more. Marksmanship is better than rate of fire.
 
I dare say, marksmanship trumps caliber as well.

Shot placement more than makes up for the difference between 5.56 and 6mm+.
 
You could build a PSA AR15 with FN CHF barrel and very nice optic for $900.
 
This ,is one of those rather difficult questions that I myself am guilty of posting rather often. A cz 527 (7.62x39 high quality mini mauser) is light, short, beautiful, accurate and reliable, But being bolt action not so good for defense.

A pistol caliber carbine (any 357 lever or the beretta storm carbine) is light, Short packs enough punch and pretty good accuracy, cheap ammo, ect but only 150 yard or so capable.

Aks are awesome (iv had a rifle and pistol flavor) but I find the klunky and ergonomically challenged.

An AR pistol with the sig arm brace is a beautiful thing but your caliber cost and piston requirements throw in a wrench there.

Mini 30 and sks come pretty close to meeting all requirements.

Ps90 is too expensive and wrong caliber...

I'd say an sks, mini 30, or 300 blk (just because ammo is a bit more common than 6.8 or grendel) AR build of some flavor. I'm kinda stumped here.
 
I say do exactly what you mentioned in your original post: Buy a Saiga .308, convert it, and be done with it. The stock trigger is the biggest POS ever used on a firearm, I consider it a disposable piece who's only purpose was to allow importation. I never even fired mine stock, took it out of the box and started the conversion. The Saiga .308 fits all your criteria and the 20 round steel mags are fantastic quality. I have the 16" barrel version and it's a great rifle. Especially for $500. Think of it as the highest quality, most accurate production Kalashnikov ever made, because that's what it is. For 'truck gun' use I'd put a folding stock on it. Mine wears an Ace tubular side folder and is fully functional with the stock folded or extended. The Saiga foregrip does get pretty warm. Imported as a "sporter" the stock foregrip doesn't allow any air to circulate between the barrel and gas tube and it doesn't have the signature AK gas block look. I tapered mine down at the front as many people do and drilled a row of holes in each side to allow more ventilation. I can't afford to shoot it fast enough for it to get hot now. lol
 
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