Buffalo Bore, et. al.

[Quoheleth]

In a post on the "Budget Revolver" thread in the Revolver section, Archangel posted data from Buffalo Bore on their .38 +P and .357 Magnum 125gr loads compared to some Winchester Silvertip data.

Their numbers are so much greater, it got me wondering: how can Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon, and other high-performance ammo makers get that much extra horsepower out of their ammo and it still be in spec per SAAMI? How much higher pressure are they cranking out of their loads? I can only assume they know something or have access to something we average reloaders don't know/can't access, thus being able to get more oomph with less powder/pressure? How is it that their ammo does't rattle guns to pieces?

Q

 

[50caliber123]

I bet it does rattle cheaper guns after several hundred rounds fired. Like shooting +p ammo in a .38 snub built before +p ammo was on the market. At the cost, one 500rd case would last a bit, with cheaper box ammo used for practice.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I think they have access to special powders that they buy in bulk which aren't available to us. Think Hornady Lite Magnum.

 

[wow6599]

I can't prove it, but I think my new at the time SP101 was shook loose with about 100 rds of Double Tap stuff. Probably about 200 rds of .38 SPL, 100 rds of .357 handloads (mild loads) and the DT's.....158 gr & 180 gr.

 

[Quoheleth]

I thought Rugers were indestructible! If that happened to an SP101, could you imagine a less stout gun?

Q

 

[PabloJ]

I thought Rugers were indestructible! If that happened to an SP101, could you imagine a less stout gun?

Q

I would not shoot that ammo from GP100. All that stuff does is make shooting less pleasant activity.

 

[MikeJackmin]

If you don't want to exceed a maximum pressure limits, the way to get the most power out of a cartridge is to do the following:

1) Get the pressure to a point just below that limit as quickly as possible, and

2) hold the pressure there for as long as possible.

I'm no expert, (and my terminology here is probably incorrect) but my assumption is that there are two different forces which are applied to the gun when it is fired - pressure, and momentum. If you throw a given chunk of lead faster with one cartridge than with another, you are going to subject the gun to more momentum, regardless of the peak pressures involved.

Now, the big question is, how much does momentum really matter, in practical terms, with regards to the wear and tear on the gun? I have no idea. Excessive pressures can certainly damage a gun, but I'm not sure if using a higher-performance but standard-pressure load will meaningfully increase the wear on a gun or not.

However, given the cost of this specialty ammo, I think it is very unlikely that you could use enough of it to meaningfully shorten the life of your gun, even if it did increase the rate of wear.

Let's assume a worst-case example - that constant use of high-performance ammo will cut the service life of your gun in half. If your gun would have a service life of 10,000 rounds of ordinary ammo, every high-performance round you fire counts as two shots against the life of the gun, instead of one.

How many hundreds of rounds of the high-performance stuff would you have to fire before you noticed? A thousand rounds? More?

Even under the worst-case example, I think very few of us would fire enough of this ammo to notice. Of course, I am just speculating here, I really don't know what effect this ammo really has on a gun's lifespan, if any. Personally, I am just grateful that this ammo is available, and I'm happy to use it.

 

[CraigC]

Mostly prolific use of non-cannister powders at near-max pressures.

 

[saltydog452]

Looking at published loading data, it'll be on the ragged edge for me to re-load
45 Colt to its 1880 levels of 255@900fps.

Buffalo Bore can market the 255@1000 because they have control.

salty

 

[Steve C]

how can Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon, and other high-performance ammo makers get that much extra horsepower out of their ammo and it still be in spec per SAAMI? How much higher pressure are they cranking out of their loads? I can only assume they know something or have access to something we average reloaders don't know/can't access, thus being able to get more oomph with less powder/pressure?

Many assume that the major manufacturers and the hand loading manuals always load their ammo to maximum SAAMI pressure and that's simply not true. All the factory +P tells you is that the pressure is above the SAAMI standard pressure and below the maximum, usually its just barely over the standard pressure and not any where near the maximum for +P. Same with magnum ammo.

Secondly, many equate pressure with velocity but any hand loader can tell you that it is how the pressure is applied that develops velocity and not just the pressure. For example using Hodgdon's online data for a .357 mag load with a 180gr Nosler Partition a max load using Tightgroup produce a velocity of 1,020 fps at 40,300 CUP while a max load of Lil'Gun produced 1,422 fps at 34,500 CUP. FYI when CUP was the standard SAAMI max for the .357 mag was 45,000 CUP's.

So using the right powders and working the loads up to near maximum SAAMI pressures, custom loaders can achieve the velocities they advertise. Yes, it won't blow up a good quality modern firearm but the extra velocity will rattle it into junk quicker than what the major manufacturers produce. The extra money they charge goes to more liability insurance for the occasion where someone shoots their stuff in a old gun or cheap import like a Rohm.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Their numbers are so much greater, it got me wondering: how can Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon, and other high-performance ammo makers get that much extra horsepower out of their ammo and it still be in spec per SAAMI?

It's my opinion and only my opinion because I have no way of testing pressure but this is what I think. Factory ammo manufacturers like Remington, Winchester and Federal don't come anywhere near the SAAMI pressure limits with their ammo. DoubleTap and Buffalo Bore are right up against the limits and possible a hair over if you are looking at average pressure compared to peak pressure. While Remington might load their .38 Special ammo to only 14,500 psi and their .38 Special +P ammo to 17,500 psi Buffalo Bore probably goes right up to 20,000 psi on the .38 +P ammo.

I know Speer pushes the limits on their 135gr .38 Special +P short barrel ammo because it was in one of their publications. They claim full SAAMI compliance yet they list the pressure as 21,500 psi which was the original SAAMI limits for the .38 Special +P, not the current limits of either 20,000 psi or 18,500 psi depending on where you get the information. How else could they achieve 860 fps from a 2" barrel with a .38 Special round?

I have no problem with 21,500 psi considering that's the pressure limits used by CIP for all .38 Special ammunition. The Europeans don't have a listing for +P like we do just like it was here in the 40's and 50's when ammo was "real"! Although, 20,000 psi is probably easier on the super light revolvers that are floating around the past few Decades.

 

[Prosser]

"Mostly prolific use of non-cannister powders at near-max pressures. "

Hmm. What's 297?

I know a little about Tim Sundles, and Buffalobore. If you look at the website, you'll find that Buffalobore actually chronographs the loads in real guns. In other words, they do real world testing, and recommendations for what they are loading. They use trial and error. The general rule is to use the fullest case you can, with the slowest burning powder possible, to allow maximum pressure build up, in the barrel length you are designing the load for.
By using a slow burning powder, you avoid quick peaks, that put extreme pressure on gun pressure bearing areas. In other words, your gun can handle maximum pressure, if it uses a slow burning powder. If you use a quick burning powder, that spikes to high pressure quickly, it is both less consistent, and, it creates pressure quickly. Hard on your gun.

The big ammo makers remind me of what I think CalTrans does when designing merging lines, and lines in general, on California freeways.
Two guys smoking a joint, one guy holds up his thumb,
"Yeah man, the line should go there."
Other guy:
"Take another hit. I think it should be a little further up."
"Yeah, baby, that looks REALLLY good!!!".
"Can I have another hit?":banghead:

Or, in other words:
Remington is offered all the powder from the 16" gun loads for the battleships
of world war two, at a price that is so low, it could be only mil surplus.
They need to turn a million tons of powder over, and make a profit.
They load EVERYTHING with that powder, not caring if it's proper for that certain application, and, the powder is so cheap, they can still make HUGE profit, at the industry standard price. The powder is slow burning, fills the case, and therefore is not likely to blow anything up. Is it optimal for a 3" barreled handgun, in .44 Special? NOT even close. BUT, they still charge 25 bucks for 20 rounds, with a lead 246 grain bullet, and, they even throw in some case lube, so you at least don't feel totally screwed.

Tim Sundles pays 1000 times more for his commercial powders, and, is charging maybe twice what Remington is. He can still make a profit by producing a quality product that even reloaders are hard pressed to match, with retail powders.

Also, guys like Mike McNett, at DoubleTap, have a long history of experimenting with loads to achieve maximum velocity, using even combination powders. Casull did this as well. This is pretty close to Voodoo Magic, but, it can be done, and, it takes work, and very careful quality control the major makers can't do.

 

[Ben86]

This calls for a Buffalo Bore torture test!

 

[roscoe]

My understanding is that, for example, .357 from Federal, Winchester et al., is a reduced load relative to the original design of the cartridge. Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap are closer to that originally design. I use DT and BB in my SP101, Security Six, Blackhawk, and Winchester rifles and have never had a problem. Their .45 LC hot load is about at the original blackpowder .45-70 level, which is pretty impressive.

 

[LawofThirds]

I love the buffalo bore .38 +p 158g SWCHP load. It's surprisingly tame on the shooter's end and still does 1000 fps out of my snubbie j-frame. I've got a 4" gp100 that I bet will break 1150. I wasn't that enamored of their .45 ACP offerings though, the bullet they've chosen (looks like a Hornady XTP in bronze) doesn't feed well in everything I own and doesn't offer that much of velocity over the Winchester PDX1 .45 +p.

I think Prosser nailed it on the head. The rounds I've tried have more long term push rather than a short sharp "snap" that the other +p loadings I've tried have had.