Bulge in 9mm cases that resizing doesn't fix

[WayneConrad]

MalH,

I sure appreciate y'all helping me try to figure this out. When reloading works, there's nothing to it. When I run into trouble is when I find out just how green I am.

I'll make pictures with a play-by-play of my operation and add them to the thread.

I tried a Sharpie, but that's too permanent... the inspection die doesn't remove Sharpie marks. I'll get a magic marker or candle on the way home. Maybe a whiteboard marker would work, too.

 

[WayneConrad]

More Pics

I reloaded another 50 tonight and took some pictures.

A few cases got a slight bulge during belling. This one had a good side:

and a side with a slight bulge:

When I got done belling all 50, there were some brass shavings on the shell holder:

A whiteboard marker worked great for "smoking" a cartridge. Here's one of the rejects after I "smoked" it and sent it through the max cartridge gauge. You can see that there's a bulge at the base of the bullet where the gauge rubbed the whiteboard ink off of the case. The bullet looks crooked in this picture. I didn't notice that when I was handling the cartridge. Are crooked bullets causing all my trouble?

(continued)

 

[WayneConrad]

More Pics (continued)

Here's the sizing die:

I adjust it so that I can just see light between the sizing die and the die holder.

 

[Freedomv]

I am wondering if the shell casing is "straight" 180 degrees from the bulge?

I had a problem at one time when the case did not line up with the die as it was off set by the shell holder. When this happened there was a corresponding "dip" opposite of the bulge.

If I remember correctly there was a deformity in the case rim caused by an extractor or ejector that would not allow the case to slide all the way back into the shell holder. If the case was situated just right the die would pull it into alignment, no problem. If not, it would bind and shift the case wall off the center line of the case causeing a bulge on one side and a indent opposite the bulge. Often not very noticable.

If the loading press is sprung out of alignment ( center line of die offset or at an angle from the center line of the ram ) a problem such as this may also occur. The problem is compounded when seating a slug as nothing is in alignment

My $.02 worth.

Vern

 

[caz223]

The bulge that's pictured (Crooked bullets) is caused post-seating and pre-crimping.
It isn't the same bulge you're seeing in your post-sizing inspections.
The problem is that you're seating and crimping in the same step, the expander plug is too small, and you're loading lead bullets that REQUIRE either a larger expander plug or post sizing.
I fought this battle, and the lee FC die is the solution, combined with a expander plug from a .357 or .38 special die, if you feel that loading lead is a necessity. Also, seat and crimp in different steps, it's easy on my dillon 550, but single stage machines it is a little more work.

Recommendation 1, measure the expander plug from your 9mm die, and write it down. Then, if you have a .357 or .38 die set, measure that.
Swap expander plugs, and replace in the machine, re-adjust, and start bell-mouthing. Make sure that you bellmouth enough to set the bullets on straight, and that they will at least get into the seating die straight.

Recommendation 2, remove almost all crimp from your seat and crimp die, and just use it for seating. Inspect not only the COL, but also the bullet profile, if it appears smashed or like it looks exactly like the profile of your seating plug, you're crimping too much/too early. Then to crimp, verify COL on seated bullet in case, adjust crimp to desired crimp, making sure that you don't deform bullet or shorten COL.

Recommendation 3, buy a LEE carbide factory crimp die, and use it to crimp instead of your combination seat/crimp die.

Follow those recommendations in order, and if you can solve the problem with recomendation #1, then you need not try #2, and so on.

 

[41 Redhawk]

Not that it will make any difference in the bulge from seating your bullets but screw your sizing die down until it touchs the shell holder when the ram is all the way up. Then lower the ram and screw the die down andther 1/8 turn or so. You do not want that "air gap" when sizing straight wall cases.

 

[brickeyee]

You can only allow an all steel die to hit the shell holder. The carbide in a die can crack if it is pressed against the shell holder.
Every set of carbide dies includes a warning to keepthem clear of the shell holder.
While carbide is very tough, it is a brittle material.

 

[WayneConrad]

Brickeye,

Yeah, that's why I left an air gap. No matter what my sweetheart says, I am very good at following directions. When I want to.

I did notice that my carbide insert seems to be recessed a bit from the mouth of the sizing die (see above picture). I'm guessing that I could screw the die down right to the shell holder and still not be touching the carbide insert. I might try that just to get a bit more of the base sized. I'll "smoke" the die and see where the shell holder touches it so that I can be sure I'm staying off of the carbide insert.

Is a recessed insert normal for RCBS carbide sizing dies, or is mine goofed up?

 

[caz223]

That's normal, that's to allow for insertion of bell-mouthed cases, and provide for the fine indexing on progressive machines.
Dies intended for progressive machines are rather generously releived in this area to allow for faster indexing, and therefore more reliable high speed operation.
Realistically, the cases get work hardened from being worked, and they are initially harder near the case head than the case mouth.
Constantly resizing 'glocked' brass work-hardens the case head area, weakening this vital area.
By 'glocked', I mean of course, firing the round in a gun with a generously releived chamber, thus causing that little bulge in the 6 o'clock position.
Generally the brass is strong enough to keep everything under control, but when you pick up brass of unknown origin and use it to reload, or own a gun with a loose chamber, the brass has been stretched.
When you resize brass near the case head you're 'stretching' it back again, stressing it more.
9mm is fairly strong brass, but if the little bulge in the 6 o'clock position gets resized every time, it definately shortens the life of the brass, and sets you up for a case head failure if fired in a generously relieved chamber.
Under normal pressures, and normal use this bulge is of little consequence, but being herniated, and fixed in each reloading cycle takes it's toll on the brass in a very vital area.
I suspect that the varying percentages of 'glocked' brass collected at different areas/ranges are indeed, the percent of glocks present and the more LE folks present, the more 'glocked' brass you will find. (Generally.)
Sorry for the novel, just didn't want to offend anyone.

 

[HSMITH]

Pretty simple. The bullets are seating crooked. Get a seating stem that fits the bullets properly and all should be fine.

You also need to get the sizing die down further on the cases. The bulge just over the rim should be ironed out.

 

[WayneConrad]

Pretty simple. The bullets are seating crooked. Get a seating stem that fits the bullets properly and all should be fine.

HSmith, I think that's it! I took my round-nose seating stem out of the die and held it up to a bullet. It doesn't fit these rather pointy bullets correctly. Only the tip of the bullet contacts the very center of the stem, leaving the bullet free to wiggle any which way.

If I send a bullet to RCBS, won't they make me a seating stem that fits it? Sounds like the thing to do.

You also need to get the sizing die down further on the cases. The bulge just over the rim should be ironed out.

All I can do is get rid of the air space between the shell holder and the seating die, which is a few thousandths. The carbide insert is recessed 0.010" from the bottom of the die, so I can screw the die in until it contacts the shell holder and not endanger the insert.

The "ramp" at the bottom of the carbide insert ends about 0.050" from the bottom of the die, and the shell holder is 0.124" deep, so it looks like I should be able to take out any bulge that is at least 0.174" up from the base of the shell. That makes me a little puzzled over the after-sizing bulges I'm seeing at around 0.250" from the base of the shell.

Oh well. Now that I know that the near-the-base bulges aren't my problem, I'm not so bothered by them.

 

[Mal H]

Wayne - you'll fix most of your problems with one simple change in your procedure (aside from obtaining the proper taper crimp type die). Try seating the bullet and crimping in two steps instead of one, i.e., seat all your bullets to the proper OAL with the die backed out about 1/8th inch and then set the die to the proper depth and back out the seater stem. Works every time. (I use a specific washer about 1/8th inch thick in between the die and press for seating and then remove the washer for crimping. That prevents having to readjust the die for each operation.)

What 41 Redhawk was having you do is the proper way to set the sizing die for the following reason: If you check the space between the sizing die and the press with a very thin feeler gauge while sizing, you'll usually find that there is still a small gap even if the die is initially set against the press during setup. This is due to things stretching ever so slightly during the high force required to size a case. Try it, you'll see what I mean. The gap you left (as depicted in the photo) is way too much gap for proper full-length sizing.

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

"HSMITH
Pretty simple. The bullets are seating crooked. Get a seating stem that fits the bullets properly and all should be fine.

You also need to get the sizing die down further on the cases. The bulge just over the rim should be ironed out. "

There's some other good information in this thread, but when I saw the photo of the loaded round, this is exactly what I thought of too. First thing I'd do is change bullets to a round ball or a hollowpoint that has a flat nose that fits the seat plug face. And set the sizing die down a as far as it will go. You should have the taper crimp die too.

-Steve

 

[WayneConrad]

MalH,

I tried seating and crimping separately. Alas, it did not seem to change the number of reject rounds I was making.

Thanks for explaining why 41 Redhawk wants me to set up the sizing die that way (and thanks also to 41 Redhawk). I'll give that a try.

RCBS customer service is closed on Fridays . Now I have to wait until Monday to talk to them about a custom seating stem.

 

[Mal H]

I think the problem is still related to the roll crimp die. If you try to crimp with a roll crimp into a bullet without a cannelure, the brass has to go somewhere and that somewhere is probably down producing the bulge below the bullet. Not much point in trying anything until you obtain the taper crimp die. Well perhaps not "anything". I would try using a very light crimp and see what happens.

(I'm not fully convince you need a custom seating stem. The bullets you used in the photo should be compatible with a 'normal' concave seating stem as long as you start the bullet into the case without any tilt to it.)

 

[Bullet]

Mal H

I didn't know they made a 9mm roll crimp die. What would you use it on?

 

[Mal H]

Good question ... I dunno.




Wayne - what is the part number on the die set box?

[Edit]

Hey, hold the phone!

Wayne, you don't have a roll crimp die. You have the standard taper crimp die. I went to the RCBS website to see if they could explain the RC die. They don't make one!

I then went downstairs and looked at my 9mm TC die and it is marked exactly the same as yours. 10 to 1 the box is marked 'TC' on the label.

I'm surprised at myself and everyone else here for not checking on that before. Oh well, you know what they say about the word "assume" .. it makes an ass out of you and Uma Thurman.

Ahyway, back to real issue. You're either crimping too far, the bullet is going in crooked, or the brass is too soft. Back off on the crimp until all you see is a very short ring around the mouth of the brass after crimping. And be doubly sure the bullet is going in straight.

 

[Bullet]

Quote “Pretty simple. The bullets are seating crooked. Get a seating stem that fits the bullets properly and all should be fine.â€

I agree with this. I’d use a separate die to crimp.



Quote “You also need to get the sizing die down further on the cases. The bulge just over the rim should be ironed out.â€

Quote “Generally the brass is strong enough to keep everything under control, but when you pick up brass of unknown origin and use it to reload, or own a gun with a loose chamber, the brass has been stretched.
When you resize brass near the case head you're 'stretching' it back again, stressing it more.
9mm is fairly strong brass, but if the little bulge in the 6 o'clock position gets resized every time, it definitely shortens the life of the brass, and sets you up for a case head failure if fired in a generously relieved chamber.
Under normal pressures, and normal use this bulge is of little consequence, but being herniated, and fixed in each reloading cycle takes it's toll on the brass in a very vital area.â€

I believe if you set up your sizing die as recommended by the manufacture and still have a bulge after sizing (that won't fit in a case gage) throw the brass away.

 

[caz223]

I'd definately agree with that, if my lee FC die can't fix post crimp problems, or iron out case head bulges, the round is culled.

I've actually heard people disassembling one of their dies, screwing it upside down in their press, and pounding their brass through it with a hammer and punch.
I mean ***? it's only brass, and you're risking your personal safety/health and your hardware, as well as the personal safety of everyone around you.

If you have to work the brass that much to return it to spec, it's not serviceable anymore.

(Edited for spelling and phrasing.)

 

[Peter M. Eick]

That has been suggested if you have "glocked" brass in the 40 and the 10mm. I have considered it also for some MP5 10mm brass I picked up, but decided that it would just be easier to load to 40 short and weak levels and not worry about it.

I love to shoot that once fired brass that you know you are going to toss. Nothing like a day at the range without stooping!

 

[zeke]

Gonna agree with 41 Redhawk, the dies should be adjusted down further. When setting up my sizing dies, use a case inserted into shell holder, and the sizing die is not tightened untill an unsized case is used and the die just kisses the shell holder. (Have my press setup with positve stop on leverage arm). This optimizes the sizing capability, and insures the die and shell holder self align.

Same technique is used to self center the belling die.

Ya might want to compare the gap you're seeing, with the gap ya might see when using an unsized case.

To further extend the sizing capability (done it with 45 acp, not 9mm yet), a Lyman carbide sizer can bottom lip pounded over, the top of a shell holder can be filed down. This significantly extended the amount of case sized.

If ya reload the any case enough times, eventually ya might see a buldge develop lower on the case. Pretty normal occurence with 45 acp cases, which seem to "shrink" over time.

 

[WayneConrad]

Just loaded 50 with no rejects!

I just loaded 50 rounds to try out my new Taper Crimp die. No rejects! I'm very excited. Thanks to everyone for helping me through this.

Things I paid special attention to:

I screwed my sizing die in until it the pressed just cammed over when sizing a case.

During belling, the first two cases went in crooked or something and came out with a bulge on one side (like I pictured before). I tossed those and the next 50 went without a hitch.

Priming was great. I like my ram priming unit.

Still stinging from Saturday's squib, I checked each case for powder until I got bored.

I adjusted the seat/crimp die only until it put enough crimp in the round so that it would fit in the inspection gauge, and maybe 1/8" turn more. Then I seated and crimped all 50 at the same time. No rejects!

I'm still getting some slightly crooked bullets even though I'm using great care putting them on straight, so I'll still go ahead and get the custom seating stem.​

MalH, To come all this way and find out I might have had the right part all along ! My 9mm set is labeled "3 DIE SET 9MM LUGER #20504." It might not be the original box (I bought it used on eBay). The old seat/crimp die is stamped "RCBS 9MM LU SEAT 86." About 0.6" from the mouth of the die is a small ledge.

The new seat/crimp die is labeled "TAPER CRIMP SEATER 9MM LUGER #20562", and the die is stamped "RCBS 9mm LUGER TC *4." When I peer it, there's a difference. Where the old die has a ledge, the new die is smooth.

 

[Mal H]

I stand corrected - by myself. A couple of days ago I said RCBS doesn't have a roll crimp die in 9mm. Looking at their charts, I didn't look further than the die sets. Checking again just now, I see they they don't sell a set with a RC die any longer (may have in the past which is apparently what you got), but they do sell individual RC seater dies in 9mm. It is P/N 20538. P/N 20562 is indeed the taper crimp die. You should be good to go now as you have already found out.

I love it when a plan comes together!

 

[Bullet]

Bullet - Quote
"Mal H
I didn't know they made a 9mm roll crimp die. What would you use it on?"

9mm I guess but I sure never heard of it. Probably lots of things I haven't heard of.


WayneConrad - Quote "Still stinging from Saturday's squib, I checked each case for powder until I got bored."

Not sure what to say about this.

 

[BluesBear]

I screwed my sizing die in until it the pressed just cammed over when sizing a case.

I have been doing it this way for 30 years and I have never damaged a carbide sizing die.


But I can attest that if you drop a carbide size die on a concrete floor it's toast.