Bullet Choice: do you plan for light cover penetration?

[krept]

Here, 'light cover' could mean 'concealment' ... e.g. an auto door or two, glass, drywall, brush, stuff like that. Many handgun bullets will do this, but some can lose a significant amount of energy or be significantly deflected in the process.

Have you chosen or would you choose a bullet (including cartridge) for daily carry that takes this into account? This includes any handgun cartridges you would carry in your person, whether chambered, in a cylinder, magazine or any kind of reload.

Some might answer right away "if you have to shoot through light hard cover, why not beat a hasty retreat?" Also, if you score a solid hit, the energy wasted after exiting a bad guy could pose too great a threat to others.

Some might answer that penetration is absolutely necessary. Maybe because you might, although very rarely, encounter a situation where you need to go through a windshield or an overgrown bush without deflection. If you think you might have to deal with this problem, why not carry a spare speedloader or magazine full of FMJs or hardcast SWCs?

If you are LEO, then please answer as if you were off duty.

If you can't carry, please answer as if you could...

 

[WebHobbit]

I think the dangers of over-penetration are too great to worry about any "tactical advantage" you may lose by going with less than deep penetrators.

I would rather have a round fail to penetrate enough than to pass through my target and hit a bystander.

I carry 110 grain SJHP .357 Magnums for SD/HD. It's a pretty LOW penetrator and would no doubt do horrible in the FBI Tactical Penetration tests but I'm fine with it.

 

[tiberius]

For CCW, I do NOT plan or carry for penetration of cover. I figure that in the event I am ever forced to shoot someone with my CCW, they will not be hiding behind cover. If they are, I will most likely escape instead of shoot.

Neither do I worry too much about over penetration of the human body by my pistol ammunition. I think that the likelyhood of hitting an innocent because I completely miss the hostile is much greater than the risk of a round penetrating a hostile and harming an innocent.

I am not criticising anyone else's decision or reasoning, I am just stating what I do and why.

FYI, I carry the folloing in my carry guns:

45's - hardball or Golden Sabre 230gr
p-32 - hardball
.357 - Corbon 125gr jhp
.38 - Nyclad 158gr hp

Edit - oops, the .38's are actually 125grain +P

 

[ElAlumno]

I'm and LEO and carry the same on and off duty.

By and large the performance really doesn't vary that much.

I would strongly recommend that you look into you local laws and see what constitutes justified lethal force. Some states may consider shooting through such barriers and not justified.

 

[themic]

i can think of a situation when shooting through cover may not be necessarily in direct contradiction to an immediate threat (remember: opportunity, ability, intent!) that one should escape from.

at least here in virginia, "self defense" includes your immediate family, too. that is, if someone's attacking your wife or your kids, there could be a situation where they are partially behind cover from your vantage point. car, door, window, drywall, kitchen cabinets, light brush/foliage included.

first picture that popped in my head was an old OpSD article about a man who was loadin his kids in the car for school when he was carjacked by two armed men in masks. they demanded his wallet. he gave them his wallet. they demanded his car. he gave thme his keys. they said they'd take his kids, too, and kill them. he pulled his concealed firearm and shot both assailants in the head, the first through two car windows, the second through only one car window.

 

[ElAlumno]

Yes, there are indeed exceptions to everything. That is why it is imperative to know your local laws.

 

[Landric]

Howdy,

I don't think specifically about tactical penetration when selecting carry ammo. Most of my carry ammo is the result of current or past duty weapon ammo.

I carry the following:

.45 ACP: Speer Gold Dot 230 grain JHP

Back when I was an LEO in North Carolina, we had to qualify with our exact carry load. The gunshop I worked at part-time carried primarily Speer Gold Dot ammo in its defense section. The Gold Dot has a good rep, and the department I worked for issued the Gold Dot 124 grain for out 9mm duty pistols. Since I could get a deal on bulk ammo since I had to qualify with it, I went with the Gold Dot. I picked the 230 grain because it shot exactly point of aim in my pistol. Since I still carry the same pistol off-duty and its fully function-checked with 230 grain Gold Dot, I see no reason to change.

.40S&W: Winchester Silvertip 155 grain JHP

This was the issue ammunition of the last department I worked for. They would provide us carry ammo for off-duty/backup weapons that we also .40S&W. So, my .40 carry gun is fully function checked and reliable with the Silvertip. The Silvertip worked well for the department and it works well in my pistol, so I see no reason to change and spend the money to function check the pistol with different ammo.

9mm Parabellum: Remington 115 grain JHP

This is the current issue ammunition at the department I work for now. I carry it on-duty because I have to and off-duty when I carry the department gun. If I were to qualify with my own 9mm, I would carry Speer Gold Dot 124 grain JHP, Winchester 115 grain JHP(+P+), or Remington 115 grain JHP(+P+).

.38 Special: Magsafe Defender/ Speer Gold Dot 125 grain(+P)

Since I carry my .38 Special as a backup, I carry it loaded with the Magsafe. I'm betting that if I ever need to use my backup gun it will be at close range without cover to shoot through. I carry the 125 grain Gold Dot in a speed strip in case I have to reload. I figure if that happens I will have moved to cover and so might my attacker.

 

[Preacherman]

Yes, you certainly should think about penetration... This is why hardball is generally a poor choice for self-defence: it's more likely than not to over-penetrate in any serious defensive caliber or cartridge, and that can be a Very Bad Thing for any innocents caught in the line of fire.

However, penetration is relative. Sure, you can look at shooting through light cover (a garbage can, a refrigerator, a house wall, etc.), but the biggest "cover" a felon is likely to have are parts of his own body! If you look into a mirror, and aim at your "mirror image" with your handgun, you'll see that your arms and hands cover a large part of the chest area, which is where you'll be aiming for a center-of-mass (COM) shot. Your bullet will need to penetrate the arms (sometimes not straight through from side to side, but at an angle), pass through the intervening air space, enter the chest, get through the ribcage, and STILL retain enough energy to take out the heart, or lungs, or spine. This is not easy with a wimp load... Another scenario is someone standing sideways to you (perhaps a BG aiming a gun at your wife). To take out the COM area, you'll have to shoot through the upper arm, with the big muscles and bones found there, and still get SIDEWAYS through the chest to reach something vital.

I've chosen to go for the middleweight rounds in my carry calibers, taking those that offer good penetration and adequate expansion, but not the top penetrators (because they typically don't expand too well) or the top expanders (because they typically don't penetrate too well). In .40 S&W, for example, my top choice is the Remington Golden Saber 165gr. JHP, which is accumulating a highly impressive stopping record in the hands of police. My second choice would be the 155gr. rounds like Federal, Winchester, etc., all of which have proven themselves on the street.

 

[Bowlcut]

and i thought you were always susposed to load your weapon, hollow point, armor periceing, hallow point, armor periceing, hallow point, armor periceing, hallow point, armor periceing .....

 

[Mannlicher]

Most heavy bullets, of sound construction, and traveling at over 1000fps, will penetrate light cover. I have had no problems with using 255 Gr .45 Colt, 230 Gr .45 ACP, and 270 Gr .44 Mag bullets.

One thing that is way overblown, is that current buzzword of the timid, "Over penetration". All kinds of talk, and lots of anecedotal stories, but very little in the way of verifiable facts. Hand guns are just not as powerful as many think they are.

 

[Preacherman]

Mannlicher, it's not nearly so simple, I'm afraid... I'm a law enforcement type, and you would be astonished at the number of police departments and agencies nationwide that have quietly settled damages claims out-of-court as a result of over-penetration of handgun rounds, either through suspects or through light cover/concealment, and going on to hit innocent persons or their property. NYPD alone (before they went to hollow-point ammunition) had well over a dozen (nearly 20, IIRC) cases where 9mm. hardball went through felons and hit others, including other police officers.

 

[DonGlock26]

Modern Police service ammunition made by Speer (golddot) and Winchester (RangerT) are designed to penetrate light cover and still expand while penetrating 12" or so. This is ideal general purpose self defense ammunition. Since we can't predict where we will be when attacked, I suggest the ability to defeat light cover is not a bad thing. There is a difference between human beings also to be taken into account. Some people are thin and some are huge. Add a leather coat to a very fat or muscular guy and a low penetrating round may not get the job done. I prefer 230gr .45ACP, 180gr .40 , 9mm 147gr or 124/127+P 9mm for my CCW pistols.

 

[tiberius]

Preacherman,

Are all of the cases that you are referring to actually "over penetrations of felons" or just clean misses? I don't claim to be an expert, but from what I've read it is well documented that the vast majority of shots fired by police do not hit their intended target. A clean miss is potentially much more damaging down range since it hasn't lost all of that energy cutting through the "felon".

Thanks,

 

[Preacherman]

Tiberius, the NYPD cases I cited are specifically over-penetration of rounds, passing through the felon that was the target and going on to hit other persons. As for the large number of other lawsuits being settled, I don't have exact statistics. I have access to this information through LE sources, but these sources don't specify what proportion were over-penetrating rounds and what proportion were misses. A brief glance through some of the files I have available right now shows one identified as an over-penetration, two identified as misses, and two unspecified. HTH.

 

[tiberius]

Preacherman,

Thanks for the update. Your information at least points to the fact that catastrophic over-penetrations do really happen and therefore are something that we all need to be at least be aware of......of course 9mm hardball is a notorious penetrator.

 

[cratz2]

With a 1911, I carried 200 Gr +P Gold Dots, 230 Gr +P Gold Dots, 230 Gr +P Rangers or 230 SP GoldenSabers.

With the 9mm, I carry 124 +P Gold Dots and would strongly consider the 127 +P Rangers but I've only ever had 150 of them and that's not enough.

I can say that I don't give a whole lot of consideraton to overpenetration in a carry gun but I certainly don't go out of my way to ensure I'll have adequate cover penetration.

In the house, I have a 686 loaded with 4 Blue Glasers and 2 158 Gr LSWC for good measure... just in case. And I have a Taurus PT99 loaded with 115 G +P CorBons. I know for a fact that they have reasonably limited wood/drywall penetration. So I guess I do give a bit of consideration to it.

 

[blades67]

Bullet Choice: do you plan for light cover penetration?

Yes and no. I consider it, but it is not my primary concern.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I picked Federal Hydra Shocks for my .45's based on FBI tests, that included stuff like shooting through windshields, car doors etc but it wasn't my primary concern.

 

[caz223]

First , let me clarify.
I don't plan for barrier/cover/concealment penetration, because by definition that's no longer self defense, that's gunfighting.
Gunfighting isn't a right in michigan (Where I live.).
On the off chance I am caught carrying, it would be a 357SIG, or a .45acp.
I carry the gun loaded with federal HS, and carry an additional mag of hardball/flat point.
I figure that once the first mag is gone, and I still have a threat to shoot at, I should be looking for a way out.
Just remember that it's hardball when you do that mag change.

 

[Dr.Rob]

FYI, NYC still issues 9mm FMJ, along eith HP's, they've had shoot-through lawsuits with both.

 

[TheMariner]

Well, a gun fight is a felon forcing the issue.

Saying that, my P99(.40S&W) is loaded with WIN 180gr FMJ. No hollowpoints for now... but in the future, I might look into some of those all brass rounds... maybe alternate in the clips... two FMJ, one JHP, two FMJ, one JHP, etc.

 

[WESHOOT2]

IMNSHO&E

'Defense' ammo (as in 'anti-personnel') should be carefully considered.............
And the ultimate choice (compromise) must be a balance based on probabilities.

That said, most projectiles will perform different than most expectations; better, mostly.

Very serious subject.

 

[Serpico]

Living in Los Angeles, the car capitol, I like something that can at least defeat auto glass....147 sxts

 

[seeker_two]

Yep, but not as my first response...

JHP's in the cylinder/grip.
FMJ's as reloads (in case you have to punch a hole THROUGH something to punch a hole IN something.)

Plan for the worst....