Bullet suggestions

[mikemyers]

I've loaded and shot today several rounds of Hornady 230gr FMJ-FP, using 5.2gr Unique powder. My reloads had noticeably less recoil than the 230gr Winchester White Box ammo I've been using. Accuracy seemed about the same, but the holes were cut a lot more cleanly.

The gun is a Les Baer Premiere II. I'm shooting at 15 yards.

One of the people at the range, who does her own reloading, tried my ammo, and suggested I try what she uses, 200gr bullets.


I've been looking through my Hornady Reloading Handbook (brand new) and my Speer Reloading Handbook (from 1982). In particular, I read this in the Speer book:

"for the serious target shooter, the Speer 200 grain swaged lead semi-wadcutter loads have significantly less recoil and excellent accuracy."
​

Just now, on the Speer website I found this reloading data for what I think are suitable bullets:

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/default.aspx?caliber=29&usage=0&brand=0&firearm=2​

Two questions:

• What would be the reasoning to select between 185gr and 200gr bullets?
• Other than cost, is there any reason to pick lead bullets over copper jacketed bullets?

Whatever I select, I'd like to get something that works with Unique powder if possible. My 1982 Speer book shows Unique listed for their old 200gr Semi-Wadcutter bullets. Any advice would be welcome.

 

[moxie]

You can use hard cast LSWC from the major bullet casters like Missouri and get the same results as the Speer swaged bullets, using the same data IMO.

Unique works with virtually anything. Bullseye is also really great with light .45acp target loads. Try both!

Ceteris paribus, the 185 will have a bit less recoil than the 200. Whether it will in your gun in your hands has to be tested. Ditto for accuracy.

Jacketed are generally somewhat cleaner than straight lead and don't have a potential leading problem. As you said, jacketed are more expensive.

 

[mikemyers]

......Unique works with virtually anything. Bullseye is also really great with light .45acp target loads. Try both!........Ceteris paribus, the 185 will have a bit less recoil than the 200. Whether it will in your gun in your hands has to be tested. Ditto for accuracy........Jacketed are generally somewhat cleaner than straight lead and don't have a potential leading problem. As you said, jacketed are more expense.

Thank you! If I understand what you've written, jacketed bullets will work at least as well, be cleaner, and the only disadvantage is a bit more expensive.

I'd like to stick with one powder for now. I can always learn more, and try more, in the future. So, since I already have it, and since people recommended it instead of Bullseye for my revolver long ago, I'll stick with Unique for now.

My friend from the range also has a Les Baer, and she says the 200gr bullets work fine in her gun. She is the secretary of the club, and shoots in many of the competitions.


I've now read where 200gr bullets seem to be recommended for target shooting, but not 185gr. I don't understand this, but I plan to go with what seems to be recommended, as long as I can find reloading tables from the manufacturer that verify what I'm doing is correct.

 

[Blue68f100]

The main difference between the 185 and 200 LSWC is bullet stability at 50 yrds. Either will work at the 25 yrd range. But when you get to longer distances the 200 gr is more stable which in turn will give you a better grouping. A lot of BE shooter use 185 for the short range and 200's for the long. Some just use the 200 for both. Just remember in BE shooting most are just pushing the bullet fast enough to stabilize it, no more. The reason for the < min recommended load. They are also using a fast burn powder. Most have lower power recoil springs to keep the nose of the gun from being pushed down when the slide is pushed home.

I've shot both and mainly shoot the 185gr. My eyes are not good enough to see sharply at the 50 yrds so I very seldom shoot that distance.

 

[mikemyers]

The main difference between the 185 and 200 LSWC is bullet stability at 50 yrds. Either will work at the 25 yrd range. But when you get to longer distances the 200 gr is more stable which in turn will give you a better grouping. A lot of BE shooter use 185 for the short range and 200's for the long. Some just use the 200 for both. Just remember in BE shooting most are just pushing the bullet fast enough to stabilize it, no more. The reason for the < min recommended load. They are also using a fast burn powder. Most have lower power recoil springs to keep the nose of the gun from being pushed down when the slide is pushed home.

I've shot both and mainly shoot the 185gr. My eyes are not good enough to see sharply at the 50 yrds so I very seldom shoot that distance.

Thank you (!!!) for explaining this better than anyone at Speer, Hornady, Alliant, Brownell's, or Midway did when I asked this morning. None of them had an answer at all. I finally ordered some of these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/141482/speer-bullets-45-caliber-451-diameter-185-grain-total-metal-jacket-box-of-100

I also ordered the Speer Reloading Handbook, 14th edition, but they already told me over the phone that these bullets will work with Unique powder. They gave me the weight range too, but I'll check what's in the actual book.

Until I get better at 15 yards, I'll keep shooting that, and once I get down to two inch groups, if ever, I'll move out to 25 yards.

 

[mikemyers]

Maybe you have a good answer for why more powder is used for lighter bullets?

My best guess is that the lighter bullet starts moving more quickly, so even if there is more powder, the pressure won't build up so fast, but that is just speculation. I would have assumed that with a lighter bullet, less powder would be used, all other things being more or less equal.

If I put a heavy book and a paperback book on the table, and push them away from me, it takes a lot more "push" to get the heavy book moving. That sounds like a reason why less powder would be needed for the lighter "book/bullet". Again, my only explanation has to do with how much pressure the gun and bullet should be allowed to deal with.

 

[mongoose33]

I suppose I'd like to understand your definition of what a little less expensive is. You can buy 200gr cast bullets from Missouri Bullet for 8.5 cents apiece plus shipping (and if you use the THR discount, shipping is mostly covered). It's this bullet I'm talking about: http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=78&category=5&secondary=13&keywords=

I've shot thousands of those bullets out of my XD-45 and they're great.

By contrast, the Speer bullets you reference above cost 27 cents apiece. That's 19.5 cents more than the MB bullets.

That means you'll pay $19.50 more per 100 reloads using the Speer than the Missouri Bullet offering.

Now, if you're doing BE competitions, it might make a difference; one can only test a number of combinations to be sure. But in my case, I've had great luck with the Missouri Bullets, and there'd have to be a huge accuracy difference to me to pay nearly 20 cents per round more.

BTW, I've never had much leading issue with Missouri Bullets. Oh, there may be a little, but if you wrap some real copper Chore-boy around a brash brush, use some bore cleaner, you can easily scrub it out. A minute or two and it's clean.

 

[mikemyers]

I suppose I'd like to understand your definition of what a little less expensive is......

Let me rephrase my question. Suppose you had a sponsor, who said they would buy whatever you want, and you shoot reasonably well, not badly, but not a professional. If you left the price completely out of the equation, which bullets would use, and why?

(If the idea of a sponsor is too silly to contemplate, suppose someone wanted to award you with 1000 bullets, and you could pick whatever you want. Same question.)


Keep in mind that Sgt. Sanderson said that for every "live round" you shot, you should, which you do, shoot 100 rounds of "dry-fire". The mathematics works out to 10,000 rounds of dry fire before you use up that box of 100 bullets you referred to.

 

[ljnowell]

Maybe you have a good answer for why more powder is used for lighter bullets?

My best guess is that the lighter bullet starts moving more quickly, so even if there is more powder, the pressure won't build up so fast, but that is just speculation. I would have assumed that with a lighter bullet, less powder would be used, all other things being more or less equal.

If I put a heavy book and a paperback book on the table, and push them away from me, it takes a lot more "push" to get the heavy book moving. That sounds like a reason why less powder would be needed for the lighter "book/bullet". Again, my only explanation has to do with how much pressure the gun and bullet should be allowed to deal with.

Lighter bullet = less pressure. You need more powder to reach the same pressure level.

Go with Missouri Bullets. You will be happy.

 

[Dudedog]

Favorites MBC 200gr SWC (spend the few extra $ and get the coated ones worth it IMO) and
RMR Plated hard core match RN. RMR also has 185 and 200 plated if you want to try plated in lighter weights. THE MBC SWCs cut cleaner holes than a RN will if you like nice clean holes. Both offer THR members a 5% discount. (See BDSs PIF thread for the codes)
I load the RMR 230 with 4.7 gr of HP38 and it shoots very well and is fairly soft compared to factory 230 ball.

MBC 200gr SWC
http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=211&category=5&secondary=13&keywords= $49.50 for 500 plus shipping.
(MBC offers some 45 bullets it two different hardness ratings, BHN 12 softer and BHN 18 harder, for me in less than full power loads the softer ones worked better)

RMR 230gr RN
http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/45-2...-Plated-250-Ct-45-230-Gr-RMR-Hardcore-250.htm $65 for 500 or $40 for 250 shipped.
RMR also has 185s and 200s both are less expensive than 230s. (you are actually paying for the extra lead to make the heavier ones when you order from RMR or MBC)

MBC can ship 2000 .45s for $14. They ship USPS using flat rate boxes so as long as it is less than 60lbs (don't know the exact weight limit) it's $14. 4 of their boxes fit in a MFRB but you can have them combine 3 boxes into 2 or get 4 different flavors. To combine you just need to give them a call.

RMR includes shipping in the price.


I like Midway USA and order a lot of stuff from them but their shipping on bullets isn't cheap.
Both RMR and MBC use USPS flat rate boxes which is they way to go if you are shipping something heavy that happens to fit in them.
Side note, went to send a bunch of 40 brass to someone. UPS $27 , flat rate USPS box $12.50.

Unique shot well for me but meters poorly.
When you run out of Unique you might want to give HP38/231 a try if you can find any.
HP38 meters well for me.

 

[mongoose33]

It looks to me like the Speer is a plated bullet (Total Metal Jacket). I've had a lot of luck with Raineer 200gr plated bullets as well, so if you want to save some money trying them, here's the link:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...-grain-plated-round-nose?cm_vc=ProductFinding

In bulk, they're less than half the price of the Speers. In my XD-45, very accurate.

 

[mikemyers]

......I've had a lot of luck with Raineer 200gr plated bullets as well, so if you want to save some money trying them, here's the link.......

I got curious about this, and went to the Ranier website to check the reloading data. Either I'm much more tired that I feel, or there isn't any. All I could find is:

http://www.rainierballistics.com/load-data/

"Rainier recommends using commercially published jacketed bullet load data when loading our bullets. There is no need for adjustment when using jacketed bullet load data. Our bullets are jacketed using an electroplating process and are softer than traditionally jacketed bullets. Be sure to use only load data that is published in a reputable reloading manual."​

I know both Hornady and Speer wouldn't talk about any powders being used with their bullets, other than the ones they have tested, and for which they have load data. Is one reason why other bullet manufacturers charge less than Speer, Hornady, etc., because they don't do all the testing and documentation?

 

[mongoose33]

I got curious about this, and went to the Ranier website to check the reloading data. Either I'm much more tired that I feel, or there isn't any. All I could find is:

http://www.rainierballistics.com/load-data/

"Rainier recommends using commercially published jacketed bullet load data when loading our bullets. There is no need for adjustment when using jacketed bullet load data. Our bullets are jacketed using an electroplating process and are softer than traditionally jacketed bullets. Be sure to use only load data that is published in a reputable reloading manual."​

I know both Hornady and Speer wouldn't talk about any powders being used with their bullets, other than the ones they have tested, and for which they have load data. Is one reason why other bullet manufacturers charge less than Speer, Hornady, etc., because they don't do all the testing and documentation?

I think it's because Rainier is a smaller outfit than Speer--they don't make anywhere near the variety of bullets.

One rule of thumb for loading plated bullets is to use lead bullet data. That's generally what I do, but if you work them up, you should be fine.

My load for 200gr Rainier LRN plated bullet is 5.7gr of W231 loaded to an OAL of 1.25. This produces, out of my XD, an average velocity of 775fps.

 

[GRIZ22]

I use just about any cast 200 gr SWC over 6.0 gr of Unique for 900-950 fps (chronographed) depending on the gun used. This load is about a grain short of max according to the Lyman manual. It gives good accuracy and is hot enough to use for SD. This is my standard 45 load I've used for about 30 years. I've fooled around with other powders but always came back to this load.

 

[PO2Hammer]

I like the Blue Bullets 200 coated SWC. No leading, highly accurate. Load to 1.250" OAL.
http://www.thebluebullets.com/product-p/250-200swc-45.htm

 

[Toprudder]

Out of my gun (a Witness steel-frame 45) the heavier bullets tend to be more accurate and, with reduced loads, shoot much softer than factory ammo.

I have had good luck with both Xtreme 230 RN and RMR Hardcore 230 RN. But even those are bit apples/oranges since I have to seat the RMR to 1.200" or a little less, and the Xtreme I can seat anywhere from about 1.230" all the way up to SAAMI max 1.275" (1.235" seems to feed better in my gun). As a result, some powders may work a little better with one bullet than the other.

I've also had good luck with Bayou Bullets 225 gn. Costs less as well.

I just ran some ladder loads using Nitro 100 NF powder and was very pleased with it. It was accurate across the board from min to max loads, recoil was soft, and I saw good accuracy with Xtreme 200 RN, Xtreme 230 RN, and RMR Hardcore 230. One bottle only has 12 oz, so the price/pound ends up being a little high, but the average charge is only about 4.0gn so it evens out.

 

[TfflHndn]

I used lead for a while, but no more. I do use some jacketed at times, but most of my shooting is bullseye/target and I don't push those fast enough to need jacketed. Plain lead will leave lube in your dies that has to be cleaned up from time to time. Coated or plated don't do that, and the accuracy difference is minimal to none in my experience. My best accuracy has been with Bayou Bullets 200 grain coated SWC, and they are less expensive than plated, and way less than jacketed. I have not found plain lead to be any more accurate. Also, be careful with hard-cast lead at target velocities, particularly when using "hotter" powders like Titegroup, they can lead more than softer (12 BHN) lead. You just don't need 18 BHN lead in a 750 f/s load. Check out Bayou and SNS Casting for good prices on really good coated bullets. Xtreme for plated gets my orders. Have fun, stay safe.

 

[ljnowell]

I used lead for a while, but no more. I do use some jacketed at times, but most of my shooting is bullseye/target and I don't push those fast enough to need jacketed. Plain lead will leave lube in your dies that has to be cleaned up from time to time. Coated or plated don't do that, and the accuracy difference is minimal to none in my experience. My best accuracy has been with Bayou Bullets 200 grain coated SWC, and they are less expensive than plated, and way less than jacketed. I have not found plain lead to be any more accurate. Also, be careful with hard-cast lead at target velocities, particularly when using "hotter" powders like Titegroup, they can lead more than softer (12 BHN) lead. You just don't need 18 BHN lead in a 750 f/s load. Check out Bayou and SNS Casting for good prices on really good coated bullets. Xtreme for plated gets my orders. Have fun, stay safe.

Maybe it's just me but I couldn't imagine shooting Bullseye without 148 HBWC lead bullets and 200 grain LSWC. Not to mention that I have never founded a plated bullet that had as sharp of edges or was as accurate at 50 yards.

 

[anothernewb]

Maybe it's just me but I couldn't imagine shooting Bullseye without 148 HBWC lead bullets and 200 grain LSWC. Not to mention that I have never founded a plated bullet that had as sharp of edges or was as accurate at 50 yards.

agreed. life just wouldn't be the same without them. Add 124 grain tapered cone 9mm's to the list, and you have described 95% of the bullets in my supply.

 

[PJSprog]

I've been getting good results from my RIA using 185gr jacketed bullets over 5gr of HP-38. Very moderate recoil, and my gun likes them. I was thinking yesterday of trying some of the plated options. The price per round is much more attractive. There does seem to be a better selection of 200gr bullets pretty much everywhere, though. I'd say, buy a small box of each and see what you and your gun like better.